Why people need God for morality
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24-02-2010, 03:45 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(21-02-2010 09:37 PM)supermanlives1973 Wrote:  
(21-02-2010 02:04 PM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  As an atheist, I see basic morals coming from our nature, and the fine points coming from our community. Although the optimist in me likes to say that the nature breed into humans is too strong for a theist going atheist to go on a killing rampage, I wonder. Looking at places and times like Nazi Germany, we see that our society has a lot to do with our morals. So if a theist somehow is forced to become an atheist, would they be able to find their morals from within, or would they think they lost their sense of right and wrong with their faith in god? I have always wondered that.

See, I kind of disagree with your point above. For one, it would be interesting on HOW you would force a theist to become an Atheist. I don't speak for all Atheists; however, my coming around was my OWN choice. I went through the doubt about being moral without religion and, once I read the bible and found NO morality in it, I determined that my morality was derived from nature (evolution) and nurture (my upbringing).

I think a moral guidance apart from any religious text is required here...kind of like a UN 'golden rule', that would be enforceable (you already go to prison for stealing and murdering).

The one concept that comes to mind is Thomas Hobbes' Natural Law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law...atural_law

If we can derive our 'moral law' from a real-world source (what else will the philosophers have to do in the future?), then more people will hopefully realize that it is the here-and-now that matters more than the fantasy paradise they have been promised all along after they are dead (heaven).

First of all, you are right, I see no possible way to force someone to become an atheist, but I use that as a "What If" case. WE also both agree that our morals come from the same places. I think I might not have been clear when saying where theists draw their morals. It's not necessarily from the scriptures themselves, but how their world interpreters the holy book. So that morals don't always come from the bible, but the priests. If you somehow managed to remove the faith from the person, I'm sure it would be very traumatic. Some would probably realize that that even without god, they still know right from wrong, but some might not make that jump. Not that they lack morals, but they lack the ability to recognize them. If that makes sense.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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03-03-2010, 05:44 AM
 
RE: Why people need God for morality
Hi,

The common claim is that God is the only source of all morality. He alone defines what is good and moral, and what is not. The only moral actions are those that please God, and immoral actions are anything which angers him. Make the big dude happy, don’t piss him off, and you’ll get along just fine.

And on one level, this doesn’t sound like such a bad idea – God is one guy you really don’t want to piss off, after all. Seriously, he’s hardcore. If you’ve ever touched an electric fence, you’ll know how even a small and momentary burst of current can send a powerful and unsettling jolt down your arm. Well, God is the dude who holds onto lightning in his bare fucking hands, before throwing it down and destroying your home. Bad. Ass. If he told me to stop kissing girls I’m not married to because it’s an affront to his divinity, or not to… I dunno, something about coveting and asses, then there’s no way I’m gonna argue.
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03-03-2010, 06:51 AM
 
RE: Why people need God for morality
(03-03-2010 05:44 AM)josephtamis Wrote:  Hi,

The common claim is that God is the only source of all morality. He alone defines what is good and moral, and what is not. The only moral actions are those that please God, and immoral actions are anything which angers him. Make the big dude happy, don’t piss him off, and you’ll get along just fine.

And on one level, this doesn’t sound like such a bad idea – God is one guy you really don’t want to piss off, after all. Seriously, he’s hardcore. If you’ve ever touched an electric fence, you’ll know how even a small and momentary burst of current can send a powerful and unsettling jolt down your arm. Well, God is the dude who holds onto lightning in his bare fucking hands, before throwing it down and destroying your home. Bad. Ass. If he told me to stop kissing girls I’m not married to because it’s an affront to his divinity, or not to… I dunno, something about coveting and asses, then there’s no way I’m gonna argue.

Have you READ the bible? Find me a verse in the OT/NT from god that shows anything about compassion, caring, love, etc., etc., etc.

I am reading it and no where in the text I have read so far do I see the 'god' that you all talk about (the loving one). As far as I can tell so far, god will kill you no matter what small transgression you do...

As an example, read Deuteronomy 28 and tell me where the morality is in the section about punishment for disobedience...

Would I, as a father, be condemned or praised for enacting those types of punishments on my children for their disobedience?

Would you, josephtamis, use god's methods as your own when punishing your children (I assume you have kids, if not, take it hypothetically)?

On The Atheist Experience, a guy had called in to try and convince the host Matt Dillahunty that the bible was a moral book. Matt flat out asked the guy "Would you kill your own child if god had commanded you to?" At first, the guy disagreed but, by the end of the call, he said he would. Is this the same thing you believe, josephtamis? If god commanded you to kill people (regardless of the reason, if he's god, he doesn't need one), would you do it?

If you answer 'yes', then I'd be concerned for you and the people around you.

If you answer 'no', then your morality does NOT come from the bible but from the same place it comes from for ALL humanity...as a by product of our evolution, of our community, from our humanism that we ALL have. There are NO moral teachings in the bible that we, ourselves, have from millenia of evolution, of 'trying to get things right'.

I'll leave you with a final though, from Christopher Hitchens:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rbCVcRpnF0
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