Why should I be an atheist?
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02-05-2017, 01:22 PM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(02-05-2017 11:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-05-2017 07:48 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Except Pascal leaves out all the other millions of gods and goddesses that people have believed in over time. If you are going to follow his philosophy of thinking, then you should really worship all gods and goddesses to be safe and to truly cover yourself. You realize all your free time would be devoted to this endeavor because millions of gods have existed since the dawn of time.

Why be an atheist? To think for yourself and to not live your one life based on what someone else told you was true. To live in reality. To embrace science and reason. To live your life on your own terms. To educate yourself on where religions came from and to have the courage to look behind the curtain. To be truly free.

One major problem with this objections, most religions are not exclusivist, and many don't have a hell like after life, for those who don't subscribe to their particular tradition. The Roman may have killed your for accepting their Gods, but wouldn't tell you you're going to burn in hell for it.

In fact such a beliefs are primarly a judeo-christian thing, reducing the millions of alternative options, to at best 2-3.

It's not a major problem at all because your objection doesn't solve the problem of the logic of Pascal's Wager in the first place; all you've done is make an excuse for it.
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02-05-2017, 01:28 PM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(02-05-2017 09:35 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(02-05-2017 09:05 AM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  Call me a skeptic, but I'm thinking the OP is just fishing.

I agree its a possibility, it could also be proselytization by stealth, or at the very least testing the waters.

Their posts are just rubbing me the wrong way because they seem to follow the script. They say they are having doubts/can't answer questions/etc. Then their second post lays out what they believe and then adds "what do you think"? That was the red flag for me, because it's pretty obvious what the vast majority here think. Plus the way they laid out what they believe was almost a script for "witnessing".
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02-05-2017, 01:45 PM (This post was last modified: 02-05-2017 02:21 PM by Reltzik.)
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(02-05-2017 12:09 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-05-2017 11:54 AM)adey67 Wrote:  And your point is .?


That's pascals wagers doesn't apply to millions of Gods or religions, and can primarily only be applied to the unique features of the Abrahamic faiths.

You're wrong about all other faiths being non-exclusionary, but suppose you were right.

If a new religion were to arise that was ALSO exclusionary and NOT based in the Abrahamic tradition, would Pascal's Wager then stop being a good argument and become a bad one?

Was it a bad argument before Judaism Christianity arose in the first place because no exclusionary faiths existed before then? (Judaism is only non-exclusionary where Jews are concerned, and wasn't always that way, and in the modern day that's kinda softened a lot with Reform Judaism. So, it's not really an Abrahamic thing, so much as an Christo-Islamic thing.) Or was it always a good argument for worshiping your God even before the threat of Hell became widely known?

Would it be a good argument in the present day for a hypothetical future exclusionary religion that also conveyed the threat of infinite punishment or reward in an afterlife, even if that religion has yet to arise and we know nothing of it yet?

Okay, here. Let's have a new disproof of Pascal's Wager. I like coming up with new stuff. (Maybe someone else has done this already, but if so, I've never heard of it.)

What if we were to imagine -- here, let me do it right now -- another possible faith, call it a mirror faith, in which exactly every act that would land you in Hell in (insert whichever version of) Christianity would instead get you into Heaven, and every act that would get you into Heaven would instead damn you? So, if we're the sort of Christianity that believes that baptism is automatic salvation, then in that version's mirror faith baptism would mean automatic damnation. Similarly, for a version of Christianity where an unforgivable sin would guarantee your damnation, that same act would, in the mirror faith, automatically land you in Heaven.

Does the mere fact that I have now imagined that faith, and transmitted out into the marketplace of ideas, then make this something that Pascal's Wager must contend with in its calculations?

Would not every valuation made by Pascal's Wager, such as infinite reward for true belief and infinite punishment for disbelief, now be cancelled out by the equal but opposite rewards and punishments in the mirror faith that has now been articulated? Does that not then leave Pascal's Wager as presenting not the slightest argument in favor of Christianity?

Or are we, for some reason, specially privileging Christianity in these calculations as having higher odds than the mirror faith, and thus having its rewards and punishments weighted greater than those of the mirror faith? If so on what basis? Popularity? Tradition? Both are blatant fallacies. Whatever basis you might propose for privileging Christianity, whatever the strength or frailty of the basis, THAT would then be the argument for Christianity. Pascal's Wager would depend on completely on it and could add nothing to it. It would be utterly superfluous.
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02-05-2017, 02:32 PM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(02-05-2017 01:45 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  You're wrong about all other faiths being non-exclusionary, but suppose you were right.

If a new religion were to arise that was ALSO exclusionary and NOT based in the Abrahamic tradition, would Pascal's Wager then stop being a good argument and become a bad one?

For starters, Pascal's Wager in regards to what Pascal wrote is not an argument for belief, though a variety of quote mined interpretations attempt to present it as such.

And secondly if a new religion arose similar to Christianity and it's tenets used in the Wager, the scenario in which you pit Christianity vs the other religion, wouldn't be Pascal's wager, which is between a belief, in which if one gains a lot if he's right, and in choosing the alternative one gains nothing if right, and loses a great deal if wrong. It's also a scenario built on a view where reason in and of itself is not able to lead one to one choice over the other. But one were you left with taking a gamble.

It's also not about wagering between two beliefs, but in wagering between belief vs disbelief. So the consideration of some yet to be revealed religion is not a part of it.

I'll put it this way. I'm a believer. I can see a variety of positive gains from being a believer, that contribute to both my fulfillment and happiness, in this present life as well. What do I get for becoming an atheist? Nothing. At best positive rep points, and less sneers from unbelievers. If I'm wrong, the truth doesn't even matter. If I'm right, then it does. So why would I choose atheism over theism? There's no reason to.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-05-2017, 02:46 PM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(02-05-2017 02:32 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If I'm wrong, the truth doesn't even matter. If I'm right, then it does. So why would I choose atheism over theism? There's no reason to.

Sorry, amigo, but if you're wrong then what *you* are calling true, is not true. And it might not matter to you - you might think that unless your life is eternal sucking up to some crappy self-absorbed God then it's got no meaning, but others will cheerfully live their lives without such a stupid ideology.

If you're right - which by the way is incredibly unlikely, on the order of the unlikelihood that you personally are the Chosen One who will bring Peace to the World, then your version of heaven sounds like pretty much everyone else's version of hell.

Congrats on doing your witnessing thing though, I'm sure your God appreciates the crappy arguments you put forward in his favour, if he *is* actually listening, and cares about you.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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02-05-2017, 02:59 PM (This post was last modified: 02-05-2017 03:03 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(02-05-2017 02:46 PM)morondog Wrote:  Sorry, amigo, but if you're wrong then what *you* are calling true, is not true. And it might not matter to you - you might think that unless your life is eternal sucking up to some crappy self-absorbed God then it's got no meaning.

As I said, if I'm wrong, it literally does not matter. The truth here (Atheism, if I'm wrong) literally has no value. It literally has no material benefit what so ever, beyond less sneers by folks such as yourself, and a few more TTA rep points. There's no material gain from being an atheist for me, psychologically, professionally, socially etc....

SO why should I choose the option, that literally has no value.

This is not to say it offer no material value to you, I'm sure it does, I mean why else would you be an atheist. It perhaps makes you feel smart, lets you feel a part of a group of people you want to be a part of, helps you feel protected from other groups you don't like, etc...

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-05-2017, 03:13 PM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(02-05-2017 02:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  This is not to say it offer no material value to you, I'm sure it does, I mean why else would you be an atheist. It perhaps makes you feel smart, lets you feel a part of a group of people you want to be a part of, helps you feel protected from other groups you don't like, etc...

Remarkable ...the bolded part seems to be more of a trait of the faithful in my experience; I couldn't throw a rock from here and hit another atheist, but I could sure hit 3 churches.
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02-05-2017, 03:22 PM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(01-05-2017 07:41 PM)Zombocalypse Wrote:  According to Blaise Pascal, it is a much safer bet to believe in God. And with that said, why be an atheist?

There are around five thousand horses in that race. How can you be sure you've bet the right one? And if the god you believe in is indeed omniscient, what makes you think he won't be offended by you basing your decision on such an obviously self-centered reason? Doesn't your god want faith?

To answer your question directly, the only reason to be atheist is lacking faith in deities. Don't let the tail wag the dog.
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02-05-2017, 03:42 PM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(02-05-2017 02:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  As I said, if I'm wrong, it literally does not matter. The truth here (Atheism, if I'm wrong) literally has no value.

That says a great deal about your character, or lack thereof.

The more incorrect or false things that you believe, the more likely you are to experience negative effects in your life.

(02-05-2017 02:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It literally has no material benefit what so ever, beyond less sneers by folks such as yourself, and a few more TTA rep points.

Have you realized why your rep is so low? Has it sunk in yet?

It's not the fact that you believe in a god of some type. There are a number of believers here who are quite highly regarded. So, that's not it.

You just said that the truth has no value to you if it confers no material benefit.

Is that why you act the way you do? You lie, you mislead, you provoke.

And then you hypocritically whine when people react negatively.

(02-05-2017 02:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  There's no material gain from being an atheist for me, psychologically, professionally, socially etc....

So you base your viewpoint on material gain, rather than a desire to understand the truth.

And yet you criticize atheists.

(02-05-2017 02:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  SO why should I choose the option, that literally has no value.

You do not choose your beliefs, you ignorant ass. A person becomes convinced of the truth of their beliefs for a variety of reasons, good or bad. But you cannot choose your beliefs. That's called self delusion.

(02-05-2017 02:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  This is not to say it offer no material value to you, I'm sure it does, I mean why else would you be an atheist.

Boobs.

(And that should be a question mark at the end of your question...)

(02-05-2017 02:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It perhaps makes you feel smart,

Not really. The more I learn the more I realize how much more there is that I don't know. It's a lot harder than lying and saying "god told me".

(02-05-2017 02:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  lets you feel a part of a group of people you want to be a part of,

There are some good people here. People who inspire me and make me want to better myself so that can count myself in their company. People whom I respect and want to earn their respect.

Not you of course, but I think you knew that.

(02-05-2017 02:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  helps you feel protected from other groups you don't like, etc...

Given the number of trolls that pass through, I'm not sure how you can say that we're insulated from groups or people we don't like.

I won't say protected, because frankly, people like yourself and the rest of the trolls are contemptible at worst, pathetic at best. We don't need protecting from the likes of you.

You keep trotting out the same old apolgetics that people have been tossing around for centuries, if not longer. You're arguing Pascal's Wager FFS!

You have no evidence, you have no arguments and given your own statements, you have no integrity.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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02-05-2017, 04:06 PM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(02-05-2017 02:32 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  For starters, Pascal's Wager in regards to what Pascal wrote is not an argument for belief, though a variety of quote mined interpretations attempt to present it as such.

Pascal's Wager

You are a liar:

Quote:Pascal's Wager is an argument in apologetic philosophy devised by the seventeenth-century French philosopher, mathematician and physicist Blaise Pascal (1623–62). It posits that humans bet with their lives that God either exists or does not.

What are apologetics, tommy? C'mon, you studied with Jack Chick. What are apologetics?

Quote:Apologetics (from Greek ἀπολογία, "speaking in defense") is the religious discipline of defending or proving the truth of religious doctrines through systematic argumentation and discourse.
wiki-apologetics
apologetica

That would be an argument for belief, wouldn't it?

So which is it? Are you that incompetent, that ignorant or that dishonest?

(02-05-2017 02:32 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  And secondly if a new religion arose similar to Christianity and it's tenets used in the Wager, the scenario in which you pit Christianity vs the other religion, wouldn't be Pascal's wager...

Wrong again.

Quote:Pascal's Wager was based on the idea of the Christian God, though similar arguments have occurred in other religious traditions. The original wager was set out in section 233 of Pascal's posthumously published Pensées ("Thoughts"). These previously unpublished notes were assembled to form an incomplete treatise on Christian apologetics.

(02-05-2017 02:32 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's also not about wagering between two beliefs, but in wagering between belief vs disbelief. So the consideration of some yet to be revealed religion is not a part of it.

What? No whining about rep? You're slipping.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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