Why should I be an atheist?
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02-05-2017, 07:21 PM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
Here's one distinct value my atheism has given me: my behavior is not steered by the demands of some corrupt preacher/bible-writer who hides his own peccadilloes even as he deigns to lecture me about my own. I am forced to consider my own behavior in the light of a morality which, not ensconced in Bronze Age brutality, demands that I treat not only myself but others with respect.

Last time I checked, no atheist blew up a bomb in Northern Ireland, or flew a plane into a building. It works for me: thinking about morality on my own, without orders from on high.
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02-05-2017, 07:24 PM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
We can just compare countries with low religiosity and those with high religiosity and his whole argument falls apart.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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02-05-2017, 07:25 PM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(02-05-2017 06:17 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Nope. According to you the christian worldview is based on no evidence at all, let alone good evidence. Yet there’s no reason to believe that in interviewing candidates for a job that requires drawing evidence based conclusion, particular ones unrelated to one’s religious belief, that religious candidates are less able to draw evidence based conclusions here than there non-religious counterparts.

First of all, you wouldn't be allowed, under US law, to ask a job candidate about religion.
Second, you would likely not want to ask any candidate about things other than those related to the job.
Thirdly, lets just dispense with your example.

Con artists rely on people believing things for bad reasons.
Politicians? the same.
Salespeople? Sometimes.
Telemarketers?
Phone-scams?
Phishing scams?

It's called gullibility.

(02-05-2017 06:17 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  We have very little reason to believe a christian mechanic is any less able to form an evidence based conclusion regarding the problems with your car, than a non-religious one.

You gonna ask that mechanic to pray over your car or use his tools and skills to fix it?
So I guess your example means fuck all, doesn't it?

(02-05-2017 06:17 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Have you actually read Pensées? Or is your familiarity with Pascal’s Wager based on reading other people’s interpretations of it? And I don’t find Pascal’s Wager a persuasive argument for belief. In fact I don’t find it to be an argument for a belief at all.

So keep your strawman to yourself.

I have been researching these subjects for over five years now. Books, Videos, Lectures, Conversations with theists and atheists.

Every fucking one of them that dealt with Pascal considered it an apologetic, as I described it and as it was described in the links I posted.

The only one who hasn't is... You.

It is not a strawman. You lied.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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02-05-2017, 07:37 PM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
If you value the truth, then you will be an atheist.
If you enjoy being gullible, then continue on with your life as a theist.

It's that simple.
Do you value facts or fantasy ?

You make the choice.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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02-05-2017, 07:39 PM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(02-05-2017 06:30 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-05-2017 04:06 PM)adey67 Wrote:  Wow, just wow, proof of weak arguments if you have to resort to such patently absurd comments, what about our well respected theist members here ? No one is forcing any theist to come here and stay. Only a religious nutter like you would come here arrogantly expecting special treatment, and whining when they dont get it,do you suppose atheists who behaved as you do would last five minutes on a christian forum ? No because the arguments are so weak the faithful cannot stand criticism. Asshat.

I don't know why folks like yourself accuse me of whining about how I'm treated here. I don't care how some handful of atheists on an internet forum, treat me, lol. You're too inconsequential to illicit a whine from me.

I'm perfectly fine with the attitudes, personalities, criticisms that you find in abundance here, some positive, some negative. I like it here. But i'm not looking for more drinking buddies, lol.

While folks like yourself may not like my style, or the way I argue a point etc... One thing I do try to avoid is making it personal, though sometimes I fall into that trap. I have nothing personally against you or anyone else here, regardless if you dislike me or not. It's just the internet dude, life goes on.
I don't hate you either dude I don't know you, hell if we met in person and went out for a beer we might even like each other I do however find your arguments frustrating and dishonest deliberately provocative and on occasion trollish
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02-05-2017, 07:43 PM
Why should I be an atheist?
Visit Reykjavik, Iceland. Go to one of the local gyms and hang out in the geothermal pools for a day. Tell some of the locals your religious beliefs. If you can stand the shame, odd looks, laughter and ridicule, then stay religious. If not, and if you are too ashamed to talk about it amongst people so obviously intellectually superior, welcome to the club.


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02-05-2017, 08:24 PM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(02-05-2017 07:43 PM)treefireguy Wrote:  Visit Reykjavik, Iceland. Go to one of the local gyms and hang out in the geothermal pools for a day. Tell some of the locals your religious beliefs. If you can stand the shame, odd looks, laughter and ridicule, then stay religious. If not, and if you are too ashamed to talk about it amongst people so obviously intellectually superior, welcome to the club.


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On the other hand, a lot of these Icelanders still believe in elves. And yet they still have the gall to laugh at us Easter Bunnyists.

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

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02-05-2017, 08:47 PM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(02-05-2017 07:25 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  You gonna ask that mechanic to pray over your car or use his tools and skills to fix it?
So I guess your example means fuck all, doesn't it?

According to you his ability to form evidence based conclusions regarding diagnosing and fixing my car is impacted by his unrelated/non-conflicting christian beliefs (which according to you is non-evidence based).

You’re above response seems to be an attempt to absolve you of your original claim.

Quote:First of all, you wouldn't be allowed, under US law, to ask a job candidate about religion.
Second, you would likely not want to ask any candidate about things other than those related to the job.
Thirdly, lets just dispense with your example.

First of all you don’t have to ask a job candidate about their religion, to gleam that they’re religious. Responses to general interview questions could reveal that, volunteer work on resumes could reveal that, a necklace, background check, internet search, could all indicate that.

Regardless the point here is that there’s no reason to believe that a religious candidate is less able to draw evidence based conclusions as it pertains to the job, than non-religious candidate. Particularly when such conclusions are unrelated to his religious belief.

Quote: I have been researching these subjects for over five years now. Books, Videos, Lectures, Conversations with theists and atheists.

Every fucking one of them that dealt with Pascal considered it an apologetic, as I described it and as it was described in the links I posted.

The only one who hasn't is... You.

It is not a strawman. You lied.

So you’ve been researching Pascals wager for several years, without actually reading the work in which he uses it? It’s readily available for free online. Secondly don’t change what I said. I said that Pascals wager is not an argument for belief. In fact Pascal himself indicates the scenario, as one in which reason is not able to decide the outcome, where one is required to take a leap one way or the other.


And in fact Pascals acknowledges in his own writing, that even if one recognizes that believing is the better wager, that he wouldn’t necessarily believe. “I am not released, and am so made that I cannot believe. What, then, would you have me do?" True. But at least learn your inability to believe, since reason brings you to this, and yet you cannot believe”

I’m also guessing you avoided the wikipedia summary as well: “Many criticisms have explained that the wager has been used as a supposed theory of the necessity to believe, although it's never been Pascal's intention. As Laurent Thirouin writes:

The celebrity of fragment 418 has been established at the price of a mutilation. By titling this text "the wager", readers have been fixated only on one part of Pascal's reasoning. It doesn't conclude with a QED at the end of the mathematical part. The unbeliever who had provoked this long analysis to counter his previous objection ("Maybe I bet too much") is still not ready to join the apologist on the side of faith. He put forward two new objections, undermining the foundations of the wager: the impossibility to know, and the obligation of playing.[12]

To be put at the beginning of Pascal's planned book, the wager was meant to show that logical reasoning cannot support faith or lack thereof,
We have to accept reality and accept the reaction of the libertine when he rejects arguments he is unable to counter. The conclusion is evident: if men believe or refuse to believe, it is not how some believers sometimes say and most unbelievers claim, because their own reason justifies the position they have adopted. Belief in God doesn't depend upon rational evidence, not matter which ones.[13]

Pascal's intended book was precisely to find other ways to establish the value of faith, an apology of the Christian faith.”

I'm guess the Wikipedia writers here are lieing too?

Here’s a link to the portion of the writing regarding the Wager: “https://web.archive.org/web/20061014231859/http://www.classicallibrary.org/pascal/pensees/pensees03.htm”

To be honest I only recently read Pascal’s actual wager, prior to that I used to take it at face value, how other atheists presented it. Seeing it as a bad argument for theism. It was only after reading others pointing out that it’s been taken out of context, and misapplied, that I decided to read it myself, and recognized that it’s been misused by atheists, and some theists alike.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-05-2017, 08:52 PM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(02-05-2017 07:25 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  ........

I noticed you avoided the million dollar question for the night. Let's see if we can muster an honest answer out of you, by repeating it:


As you just stated most of our desires can be traced to a desire for well-being, does your desire for truth fall into this category as well? That your desire for truth is a desire for well-being?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-05-2017, 08:57 PM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(02-05-2017 07:06 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Then in that case, perhaps you shouldn't be complaining about pushback.

You have no complaints from me, pushback to your heart's content. I think more people are actually irritated by my emotional indifference to their negative responses, then some non-existent complaining and whining by me over them, lol.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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