Why should I be an atheist?
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03-05-2017, 06:27 AM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(03-05-2017 05:45 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  You know what, I'm done arguing with your strawman.

I didn't strawman either. Those where you words, and your examples.

You hold that Christianity is belief based on no evidence. You claimed that holding such a belief makes you more gullible, and listed a variety of examples of gullibility. You made a hypothesis, presented it as a fact, and have dodged every turn to actually support it.

I'm a Christian, and you claim that being a Christian makes me more receptive to gullibility, yet you can't demonstrate even one example of something someone such as myself is likely to fall far, as a result of gullibility anymore so than you, particularly when it comes to areas unrelated to my religious belief.

You presented a hypothesis, with no actual support, and one that attempts to dodge every attempt at gauging the validity of its conclusion.

Now it may be true that you were sloppy, and didn’t carefully lay out your position, and as result it’s been misinterpreted by me. But misinterpreting a poorly constructed claim is not the same as strawmaning.

But being that you accuse me of strawmannig you, then it would mean that you don’t hold:

That being a christian makes you any less able to draw evidence based conclusions, on areas unrelated to religious beliefs, as in my job interview example.

And that being a Christian doesn’t make you anymore gullible towards claims and positions unrelated to religious beliefs, such as in your examples of gullibility, i.e phishing scams, con-artists, car salesmen, etc…

That would seem to indicate, that all that remains is:

That being a christian, makes you more gullible than others to fall for things that support, or appeal to your christian beliefs, than non-christians.

Or is that a strawman too?

If it’s not, then it’s as superficially true, as pointing out that anti-theists, atheists are more prone to gullibility regarding views in support of their particular positions, than non-atheists. Or that liberals/conservatives are more prone to gullibility in favor of their particular political positions, than those that who don’t share their political persuasion.

Quote:The rest of us were discussing Pascal's Wager as an apologetic, as it is used by apologists. As it was used by the OP.


This is all the OP said about Pascal: “According to Blaise Pascal, it is a much safer bet to believe in God. And with that said, why be an atheist?”

He treated it as a bet. He didn’t use it to argue for why you or anyone else should be a theist. He also wrote according to Pascal, and not according to someone’s interpretation of his work.

The OP gave no reason to assume he used it incorrectly. I responded to an atheist who did use it incorrectly, in particular Jennybee, who wrote about what “Pascal leaves out”, which again is a claim about Pascal’s writings, not about misused applications of it by theists.

Perhaps this is not how you were using it, and you were merely speaking of how theists interpret Pascal’s Wager, and not Pascal, but don’t project that onto other theists and atheists here, whose own word betray that projection.

Quote:The Wikipedia article, which both of us quoted, stated that it was used as a Christian apologetic.

Again I claimed that Pascal wasn’t using it as an argument for christianity, as a compelling reason for a disbeliever to believe, or anything of the sort. Full Stop. If you want to continue with how theists misuse his wager, you go on right ahead with your straw men. I addressed individuals who appealed to Pascal himself as the basis of their views regarding the wager.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-05-2017, 06:32 AM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(03-05-2017 06:27 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Wow, I find it hard to imagine such a dogmatic insulated environment. Good for you for poking a little light into the room!

That's another thing... some religious folk assuming atheism must work like a religion. It doesn't. Not even theism is a religion, unless your religion is simply, "I believe in God".

Indiana, small town, 1966. Could you expect anything else?

Further, if you've ever heard of The Bill Gaither Trio (one of Elvis's backup groups on his gospel albums), the two guys, Bill and Danny, were teachers in that school. (Danny got kicked out of the trio for getting a divorce.)
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03-05-2017, 06:36 AM
Why should I be an atheist?
These kind of conversations can go on forever. I think most people in this world just need to be led like sheep, that's all. Not everybody can handle going it alone like us non theists. ️ peace out.


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03-05-2017, 06:39 AM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(03-05-2017 06:03 AM)morondog Wrote:  ... So you're claiming you have evidence for Christianity, Tommy, or you're claiming that unevidenced beliefs are not detrimental, and in the process admitting that you don't have evidence for your belief in Christianity? You decide. But it'd be fun if you chose to answer the question. Laughat

Neither.

Some unevidenced based beliefs might be detrimental, some might not be. Some evidence based beliefs might be detrimental, some might not be. It's entirely dependent on context.

If I held an unevidenced based view that your eyes are blue, it's inconsequential.

Fatbaldhobbit on the other hand, holds that unevidenced based views are detrimental.

So if it's true that Christianity for person X has not been detrimental, and has been overall positive in regards to his well-being.

Then either FBH claim is false, or Christianity for person X is not an unevidenced based view.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-05-2017, 06:56 AM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(03-05-2017 05:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-05-2017 09:50 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  No. I was stating that belief without evidence leads to gullibility which leads to negative effects. I'm sorry that you can't grasp this.

And that would be a false hypothesis. You claim that Christianity is based on no evidence. Yet being a Christian doesn't make me any more likely to fall for misleading pitches from telemarketers, car salesmen, politicians, phishing scams, etc... than you.

Televangelists? Any atheists sending money to them?
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03-05-2017, 07:06 AM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
Also, giving a load of your income to churches and stuff.

I mean... if Christianity was the real religion, isn't God supposed to provide? Surely he'd at least make sure his churches could function properly without needing cash injections and people to do it for him.

God, as usual, doesn't provide shit. He's just given credit for things people do.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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03-05-2017, 07:14 AM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(03-05-2017 06:56 AM)kemo boy Wrote:  Televangelists? Any atheists sending money to them?

No, they're sending money to Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Margaret O'hair, Richard Carrier, The Rational Response Squad.

No, I haven't sent any money to Televangelist either.

And as I earlier stated, that if the claim is merely that believers are more gullible to claims, supportive of their beliefs, than non-christians, then this is as superficially true of everyone who holds any set of valued beliefs, being gullible to claims in support of them, be liberalism, anti-theism, conservatism, humanism, etc...

So sure charasmatic/pentecostal christians are more likely to be taken in by charasmastic/pentocostal televigenalist, then non-charasmatic christians, and non-christians.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-05-2017, 07:23 AM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(03-05-2017 07:06 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Also, giving a load of your income to churches and stuff.

I mean... if Christianity was the real religion, isn't God supposed to provide? Surely he'd at least make sure his churches could function properly without needing cash injections and people to do it for him.

God, as usual, doesn't provide shit. He's just given credit for things people do.

No that wouldn't be Christianity. Christianity is a religion the material conditions of life, are impartial to your belief. There's no promise of rose gardens in this life, not even for God-incarnate himself, with his humiliating death at the hands of the Romans. In which the resources, and commitments needed to run a church, are not much different than running any other similar non-religious operation, such as a humanistic organization.

Whatever sort of God you have in mind with your question, is clearly not the Christian God.

And sure Christians are more likely to contribute a portion of their income to the building, employees that serve for the sake of their community and organization, than non-Christians. Just like those who participate in their local humanist groups, contribute to their organization.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-05-2017, 07:36 AM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(03-05-2017 06:39 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 06:03 AM)morondog Wrote:  ... So you're claiming you have evidence for Christianity, Tommy, or you're claiming that unevidenced beliefs are not detrimental, and in the process admitting that you don't have evidence for your belief in Christianity? You decide. But it'd be fun if you chose to answer the question. Laughat

Neither.

Some unevidenced based beliefs might be detrimental, some might not be. Some evidence based beliefs might be detrimental, some might not be. It's entirely dependent on context.

If I held an unevidenced based view that your eyes are blue, it's inconsequential.

Fatbaldhobbit on the other hand, holds that unevidenced based views are detrimental.

So if it's true that Christianity for person X has not been detrimental, and has been overall positive in regards to his well-being.

Then either FBH claim is false, or Christianity for person X is not an unevidenced based view.

So can you provide evidence to back up your personal belief in Christianity? Or is your personal belief in Christianity held based off no evidence whatsoever?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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03-05-2017, 07:38 AM
RE: Why should I be an atheist?
(01-05-2017 07:41 PM)Zombocalypse Wrote:  I am a Christian for two reasons. Reason # 1: I want a glorious afterlife. Reason # 2: I fear the wrath of God.

I never understand people who have such subjectivist epistemology. How do you refrain from fearing every possible evil demon that wants to eat you alive? Why not fear Darth Vader? No reason not to believe in him either. If you're going to ask for reasons to not believe in God, at least be consistent. Ask for reasons not to believe in anything. You'll arrive at a contradictory mess of a worldview, believing everything you can't falsify. And you'll be scared shitless of Darth Vader (that Rogue One hallway scene...).

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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