Why should a deity exist?
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13-01-2017, 07:48 AM
Why should a deity exist?
(13-01-2017 07:28 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(13-01-2017 07:09 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Your not A and not B, is not a belief, or "believing something". It's a lack of belief, it's believing nothing.

It would be a lack of belief in regards to the proposed belief, not "believing in nothing".

Once again you illustrate your fundamental dishonesty.


No for the lack of belief crowd, its a lack of belief in God existing and not existing. Its a lack of an affirmative position one way of the other.

Believing in nothing here means not believing one way or the other. Sort of like how i lack a belief in whether you're married or not.



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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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13-01-2017, 07:53 AM (This post was last modified: 13-01-2017 07:56 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-01-2017 07:27 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(13-01-2017 07:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Yo dipshit. If you lack the ability to weight A and NOT A against one another, you are incredulous. You are by definition 'unwilling or unable to believe' that A is NOT TRUE.

Except here lack of belief, agnostic would be position of not being being able to believe it's not true or not false, to be on the fence about it.

Regardless:

I'm not unable or not unwilling to believe A is not true.

Believing A is true, doesn't indicate that youre unwilling or unable to believe it's not true.

If you think in my case I am, then prove it. Why should I not believe A?


Alright you dishonest cunt.


Tomasia Wrote:Incredulity would require me to be unwilling or unable to believe something. Yet there is no alternative belief here on the table, that I’m unwilling to accept, it’s only a “lack of belief” that you have to offer.


You are trying to argue that A is False is a separate proposition, instead of a rejection of one. In essence you are playing a word game, pretending that A is False is synonymous with B is True, instead of just being a rejection of A is True.

We do not have to prove A is False, because A is False is simply the rejection of A is True, it is the logical position to hold whenever proposition A is True fails to meet it's burden of proof. Failure for A is True to meet it's burden of proof does not mean therefore B is True, because B is True still has it's own burden of proof as well.

So the problem is that you are such a dishonest little shit that you are trying to hide your lack of support and evidence for A is True behind a swapping of the burden of proof, and you do that by pretending that A is False is a counter proposition (like B is True) instead of treating it for what it is, a rejection of the premise that A is True.

We do not need to prove proposition B is True to show that proposition A is True is actually false, all we need do is observe that A is True failed to meet it's own burden of proof, therefore A is False is the logical conclusion, until evidence proves otherwise.

Now would you kindly go fuck yourself?

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13-01-2017, 08:05 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-01-2017 07:04 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
true scotsman Wrote:Most brands of theism hold that God is conscious? Does your particular brand hold this? By conscious I mean aware of any objects distinct from itself.

I think most brands of theism would be weary of saying that an unchanging God, is conscious in the way human beings are conscious.

But if all you mean by consciousness here, is an awareness or other objects besides itself, sure. I don't see a problem with that.



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That's fine. Not all consciousness is of the same kind. There are three kinds or levels of consciousness. There is the sensory level, the perceptual level and the conceptual level. So no one is saying all consciousness is of the same kind. What is relevant here is the relationship between the subject and any and all of its objects. So my next question aimed at helping you to understand my point is: what is the relationship between this God as subject and any and all objects it is aware of. Do its objects depend on its consciousness or do its object exist independent of this subject's conscious intentions. If this god wishes for the water in a jug to be wine instead, does the water obey the wishes of the subject and transform into wine? Or, does the water in the jug continue to be water dispite this god's conscious intentions?

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13-01-2017, 09:09 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-01-2017 07:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(13-01-2017 07:28 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  It would be a lack of belief in regards to the proposed belief, not "believing in nothing".

Once again you illustrate your fundamental dishonesty.


No for the lack of belief crowd, its a lack of belief in God existing and not existing. Its a lack of an affirmative position one way of the other.

Believing in nothing here means not believing one way or the other. Sort of like how i lack a belief in whether you're married or not.



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what you seem to be saying here is that it's never proper to simply say "I don't know". What you are presenting us with is a false dichotomy. We have two choices: either believe that a god exists or believe in nothing.

Suppose I came to you and said "either you believe in apples or you believe in nothing. Does this seem reasonable to you?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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13-01-2017, 09:38 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-01-2017 07:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(13-01-2017 07:28 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  It would be a lack of belief in regards to the proposed belief, not "believing in nothing".

Once again you illustrate your fundamental dishonesty.


No for the lack of belief crowd, its a lack of belief in God existing and not existing. Its a lack of an affirmative position one way of the other.

Believing in nothing here means not believing one way or the other. Sort of like how i lack a belief in whether you're married or not.

I'm mildly curious: Is it possible for you to post something without adding misinformation or deception?

There is no "lack of belief crowd". Atheism exists only in regards to a single question. This concept has been repeated, endlessly, here. You know this so your repetition amounts to a lie.

Saying that atheists believe in nothing is one of the many slurs that dishonest theists, like yourself, enjoy using. It implies that the atheist(s) in question are completely lacking in beliefs and has a very strong negative connotation. It is very commonly used in conjunction with moral arguments, implying that without a belief in god, one is free to commit any action one desires.

These issues too have been discussed, ad nauseam, and you know this as well. More dishonesty.

Is it okay for you, lying for jeebus? The ends justify the means?
Or are you testing another "theory"?
Or are you bored and simply trolling?
Or, didn't you claim once that beating a dead horse was one of your teaching tools?

Whatever. Drinking Beverage

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13-01-2017, 09:38 AM
Why should a deity exist?
what you seem to be saying here is that it's never proper to simply say "I don't know". What you are presenting us with is a false dichotomy. We have two choices: either believe that a god exists or believe in nothing.

Suppose I came to you and said "either you believe in apples or you believe in nothing. Does this seem reasonable to you?
[/quote]

I'm not saying that at all, I am being descriptive, not prescriptive. I'm not telling anyone here what they ought to believe or not believe.

For me personally, it's only on occasions where I have no reason to assume one way or the other that I'd say I lack a belief. Like I lack a belief in whether youre married. But I don't merely lack a belief that santa exists. I believe Santa does not exist. I also note that I have different levels of belief, some weak some strong. Like I have a weak belief that you're a male, a slightly stronger belief that Evolution kills is a male, etc..

And it does seem to appear that lack of belief atheists, tend to treat believing like knowing. If they can't know, wither or not god exists, if gods existence can't be proven to them without a shadow of a doubt one way or the other, then they'll choose not only to lack knowing one way or the other, but believing as well.

I might find this weird, and find it to be unrelatable for a variety of reasons, I'm not telling you that you ought to operate differently.



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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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13-01-2017, 09:57 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-01-2017 07:53 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  You are trying to argue that A is False is a separate proposition, instead of a rejection of one.

It is a separate proposition than A is not true, particularly when “A is not true” is a stand in for “lack of belief in A”.

Quote:… A is False is simply the rejection of A is True

No it’s not, you can lack a belief in A being true, without holding to A being false.

Example: A: Fatbaldhobbit is married

I can reject, or lack a belief in A being true, without holding to A being false. In fact this is the case, I don’t currently know one way or the other whether Fatbaldhobbit is married or not. If it were a true of false question on an exam, I’d inform the instructor that I can’t answer it, because it indeterminable for me at this time.

Now, it’s true that if a person believes Fatbaldhobbit is single, he would also reject A, i.e lack a belief in A, same way I lack a believe in the earth being flat. But this is not the version of lack of belief we’re talking about here. It’s not between believing God exist (FBH being married) and believing God does not exist (FBH being single). But between God exists, and not believing one way or the other whether he exists or not (Lacking a belief in whether FBH is single or married).

Quote:So the problem is that you are such a dishonest little shit that you are trying to hide your lack of support and evidence for A is True behind a swapping of the burden of proof, and you do that by pretending that A is False is a counter proposition (like B is True) instead of treating it for what it is, a rejection of the premise that A is True.

I’m not swapping the burden of proof. A person who lacks belief one way or the other has no burden of proof, and that’s pretty much the position folks like yourself present yourselves as holding, just like I have no burden of proof when it comes to FBH’s marital status. Now if I was arguing he is single, than perhaps I would. But that’s not my position.

Quote:Now would you kindly go fuck yourself?

There’s nothing here for you to get your panties in a bunch over. So perhaps you should consider managing your temper a little better.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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13-01-2017, 10:36 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-01-2017 09:57 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  There’s nothing here for you to get your panties in a bunch over. So perhaps you should consider managing your temper a little better.

Perhaps you should consider lying less and posting a little more honestly.

Or did you provoke the reaction that you wanted to study?

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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13-01-2017, 10:39 AM
Why should a deity exist?
(13-01-2017 09:38 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(13-01-2017 07:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No for the lack of belief crowd, its a lack of belief in God existing and not existing. Its a lack of an affirmative position one way of the other.

Believing in nothing here means not believing one way or the other. Sort of like how i lack a belief in whether you're married or not.

I'm mildly curious: Is it possible for you to post something without adding misinformation or deception?

There is no "lack of belief crowd". Atheism exists only in regards to a single question. This concept has been repeated, endlessly, here. You know this so your repetition amounts to a lie.

Saying that atheists believe in nothing is one of the many slurs that dishonest theists, like yourself, enjoy using. It implies that the atheist(s) in question are completely lacking in beliefs and has a very strong negative connotation. It is very commonly used in conjunction with moral arguments, implying that without a belief in god, one is free to commit any action one desires.

These issues too have been discussed, ad nauseam, and you know this as well. More dishonesty.

Is it okay for you, lying for jeebus? The ends justify the means?
Or are you testing another "theory"?
Or are you bored and simply trolling?
Or, didn't you claim once that beating a dead horse was one of your teaching tools?

Whatever. Drinking Beverage


I think you're bring your own set of baggage here. I'm speaking of a single area in which many atheists, particularly atheists that like to define themselves as lacking a belief, don't believe one of the way or the other, I. E the question of whether God exists or not. And not that you don't hold a variety of beliefs outside of this question.

I lack a belief in regards to your martial status, I have no beliefs one way or the other regarding this question. Doesnt mean I don't have beliefs regarding other questions.




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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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13-01-2017, 10:49 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-01-2017 10:39 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think you're bring your own set of baggage here.

Says the poster with the ulterior motive(s).

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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