Why should a deity exist?
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14-01-2017, 08:34 PM
Why should a deity exist?
(13-01-2017 11:27 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  How this would actually work is that the first proposition is 'It Is a Fact That Person A is Currently Married'. Okay, so what burden of proof do we need for this to be considered a fact, to be evidently true? Well, a legal marriage license with a valid and legal marriage certificate would be required.

If however those documents were unable to be produced, or were fraudulent, or if we found evidence of a divorce? Well then, the proposition itself that 'It Is a Fact That Person A is Currently Married' is false, because it is not factually or evidently true.


lol, no. If I refuse to provide you a copy of my marriage license, that wouldnt mean that it's false that I'm currently married.

Apparently you can't understand that if I had no evidence one way or the other for a proposition, the response wouldn't be it's false, but indeterminable. If the proposition was " it is a fact that FBH is married", with a T of F next to it. I'd tell my professor I'm not able to determine this one way or the other. Or if there was evidence he was divorced or forged his martial license I'd indicate it is F, but not if I don't have evidence one way or the other. Not sure why this is so such a difficult point for you to understand. Perhaps your anger is clouding your judgement.

Secondly, perhaps you require to see a marriage license to determine whether anyone is married, kind of like how birthers need to see a birth certificate to determine if Obama was born in the US, while I'll likely accept your word as sufficient, particularly if I have no reason to think you'd lie about this. Someone's word might be sufficient evidence, a wedding ring on their finger alone might be sufficient, etc.

Quote:but without sufficient evidence to back up the proposition, you cannot claim it as a 'fact'.

Ah I see what you're doing. Let's not create strawman now. I was speaking of believing something is true (distinct from knowing) not claiming something is fact. I don't know for a fact that you're a male, but I strongly believe you are a male , by your tone, manner of speech, temper, even though ive never seen a picture of you, or ever heard you explicitly state your gender. Perhaps you don't feel comfortable drawing such a conclusion based on temperament alone, but that's you not me. My belief here could be wrong, but Im fairly confident that I'm right. I believe it's true, without holding that it's a fact that it's true. Perhaps if I met you in person I might hold it as a fact.

Quote:Mainly that you didn't at all understand the definition of 'incredulity' and thought it somehow didn't magically apply to you.

No, I pointed out that by definition incredulity has to do with being unwilling or unable to believe something.

And secondly the claim of incredulity seems incredulous itself. You and others haven't done a good job of establishing this, and it appears more to stem for your temper, than a rational assement.

You can't particularly appeal to incredulity just because someone disagrees with, or holds a belief you despise.

I believe God exist, now what am i unwilling or unable to believe? Just because I don't believe Y, and that I'm not persuaded to hold Y is true, is not sufficient reason to claim incredulity.

What's the difference between someone who strongly believes God exist, and is not incredulous about it, and someone who is?

But I know the game, you're not interested in whether your accusation here is true or not, it's merely appealed to for the sake of insult, and for that very reason you'd cling to it, even when it's not even accurately established.



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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-01-2017, 08:48 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(11-01-2017 07:08 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  A belief in a God of some sort, is perhaps one of the most universal of human beliefs, this tendency seems to revolve around the intuitive and hard to dismiss assumption that we're part of a created order.

But now we know from Chaos Theory it arises spontaneously ... no gods needed.

Quote:As a believer I'd put it this way, I find myself a part of existence, in which conscious self-aware creatures exist, creatures who seek meaning, and truth, and goodness, creatures with considerable moral and creative capacities, and sense that there's something more to all this, than the sum of it's parts, who seek purpose, akin to characters in story, who are not entirely aware of it's meaning. Why should i not assume we're a part of a created order, based on this? Why should i see any of these things as a product of uncreated order?

We know it all is a part of an EVOLVED reality, and that at one point none of that existed. You point applies ONLY to now. So much for that nonsense.

Quote:What's interesting is that most atheists one runs across, don't attempt to provide you a conception of a godless world, as if they posses some more believable alternative, instead they appeal to you to a lack a belief, to be agnostic on the question that we're so intuitively inclined to hold.

There you go again. making generalizations about atheists.

Quote:People like myself tend to believe in God, because the alternative seems a bit absurd, so much so that atheists prefer to lack a belief, than take it up.

Perfect example of a nonsequitur. Thumbsup

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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14-01-2017, 08:52 PM
Why should a deity exist?
(14-01-2017 07:43 AM)mordant Wrote:  There's a further, and important, difference between evaluating whether person A is married, and evaluating whether god G exists. And that is, person A and their alleged spouse are visible, observable, scrutinizable natural things. If you observe them living together, canoodling together, shopping together, bickering together, wearing the traditional engagement / wedding rings, than you can trivially collect a ton of circumstantial evidence that they are, if not actually officially married, living as if they were. Whereas god G is invisible / intangible and you can observe and test NOTHING that is actually REAL. All you can do is observe your own mental fantasies and theological musings and that of others including whatever is written in your holy book of choice. Worse, ALL the evidence points AWAY from these being tethered to reality and TOWARD them being sheer speculation at best and cynical fabrication at worst.


The whole point of theist claiming god is intangible, immaterial, etc.. is to say that whatever is meant by believing God exists here, that its not a belief in tangible, material properties of God, or the equivalent of a belief in a celestial super object.

It's to say that when thinking of God's existence here, if you find yourself wondering about his physical properties, you've strayed quite far from the question.

It's why when pointing out why I believe God exist its almost exclusively based on a belief in a created order. And not to believe God exists would also exclusively be based on no longer believing we're a part of such an order.

Atheists seem to want to suggest that we can't infer any of this until we have blood samples of God himself, the long history of theism suggests otherwise.





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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-01-2017, 08:55 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(11-01-2017 07:08 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  People like myself tend to believe in God, because the alternative seems a bit absurd.


Rational thought, critical thinking & skepticism seem absurd to you, yet gullibility is perfectly fine.

Tomasia, you are an MC Escher painting in human form.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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14-01-2017, 08:56 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(14-01-2017 08:52 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Atheists seem to want to suggest that we can't infer any of this until we have blood samples of God himself, the long history of theism suggests otherwise.

Prove it. Now THERE is a strawman.
Another non sequitur and a sentence that makes no sense in the English language.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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14-01-2017, 09:23 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(14-01-2017 08:55 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Rational thought, critical thinking & skepticism seem absurd to you, yet gullibility is perfectly fine.

No, they're not absurd to me.

But what I do think is funny, is the amount of people whose thought patterns, thinking, is so chaotically messy and incoherent, that tend to be so oblivious to this, imagining that they follow a clean, and ordered set of rules, and guidelines, labelled with buzzwords like rational, critical, skeptical, logical etc...

You can see why they prefer to cloister themselves among those as messy as them, with the same inclinations, to preserve their false self-images.

If you listen to their self-assements, and were fooled into believing it, you might start to think they're not biological creatures at all, with all the sloppiness that goes into that. If you poke a little the veneer starts to fade.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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14-01-2017, 09:28 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(14-01-2017 09:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(14-01-2017 08:55 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Rational thought, critical thinking & skepticism seem absurd to you, yet gullibility is perfectly fine.

No, they're not absurd to me.

But what I do think is funny, is the amount of people whose thought patterns, thinking, is so chaotically messy and incoherent, that tend to be so oblivious to this, imagining that they follow a clean, and ordered set of rules, and guidelines, labelled with buzzwords like rational, critical, skeptical, logical etc...

You can see why they prefer to cloister themselves among those as messy as them, with the same inclinations, to preserve their false self-images.

If you listen to their self-assements, and were fooled into believing it, you might start to think they're not biological creatures at all, with all the sloppiness that goes into that. If you poke a little the veneer starts to fade.

You are ranting incoherently. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-01-2017, 10:15 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
Suppose my deity was something no one could understand... or something all humans despised ... what then? Should humanity not reject my abhorrent deity?

FYI: reject my deity and I might strap on a vest of explosive material.
Just sayin'.
***
Religion is for children. It's stated emphatically, several times in christee scripture - "... to be a child in Christ", etc.,. And many times in qur'an.
***
Scripture is poetry.
It's put to page by human beings.

One could write sonnets to places one has never been to and produce profound and inspirational work. This makes scripture.

Conflating scripture (or any inspirational poetry) with the concept of a diety... does NOT produce truth.
---
In all honesty, truth is a far more humble and provincial attribute of humanity. Truth is small, intimate. Truth is a pale blue speck of dust in a vast sea of starlight. Truth... human truth ... is insignificant.
To produce a diety to lord over humanity ... to lord over truth ... ?

Greedy children always seem to want to be gods.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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14-01-2017, 10:31 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(14-01-2017 09:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  But what I do think is funny, is the amount of people whose thought patterns, thinking, is so chaotically messy and incoherent, that tend to be so oblivious to this, imagining that they follow a clean, and ordered set of rules, and guidelines, labelled with buzzwords like rational, critical, skeptical, logical etc...

You can see why they prefer to cloister themselves among those as messy as them, with the same inclinations, to preserve their false self-images.

If you listen to their self-assements, and were fooled into believing it, you might start to think they're not biological creatures at all, with all the sloppiness that goes into that. If you poke a little the veneer starts to fade.

Awww. Isn't that cute.
Tomato putting himself up there on that pedestal, telling us how much more rational he is than that "amount" who are "messy".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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15-01-2017, 05:53 AM
Why should a deity exist?
(14-01-2017 10:31 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Tomato putting himself up there on that pedestal, telling us how much more rational he is than that "amount" who are "messy".

Must have missed that part.




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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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