Why should a deity exist?
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15-01-2017, 02:22 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(15-01-2017 12:17 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-01-2017 09:59 AM)mordant Wrote:  Part of that negative evidence is the substantial evidence for the universe being most likely uncreated.

According my assessment, we’re most likely a part of a created ordered, regardless if my religious beliefs are true or not. And according to your assessments it’s not. Though its quite likely that we are looking at two different things, two different sets of information, and observations, in drawing our assessments here.

Quote:No we are not suggesting that you can't infer this without physical evidence. We're stating the simple fact that you can't legitimately and justifiably infer this without physical evidence.

It’s both legibility and justifiably inferred, as any variety of conditions of possibility are legitimately and justifiably inferred. Just to be clear we are talking about the idea of inferring design, a created order, from the object in question, absent of any physical evidence of it’s creator or designer. And as I said you can justifiably and legitimately do that.

In fact I’d say the only ones who say you can’t, are perhaps no one other than a handful of atheists such as yourself, who might have their own playbook as to whats constitutes as justifiable and legitimate.

Quote:Using "blood samples of God himself" in your argument implies us being unnecessarily picky or carping. For purposes of argument we don't normally suggest that god has to be a physical being with blood in his veins, that is quite irrelevant really. He could be a completely different sort of life form made mostly of energy for example.

No, I was just using an analogy. You’re sample of “energy”, or traces of God’s ectoplasm work just as well. None of which has to do with the belief that God exists. The tendency among many atheists is to equate the statement that God exists, to a statement that a celestial super object exist, in which appeals to traces of celestial energy might make sense. When in fact it’s more akin to statements that an object was designed, a part of story, etc.., and as result of this has a designer or an author. You might have you own unique rule here, that claims we are forbidden from inferring design, or a created order, without physical verification of the entity responsible for it, but that’s just you, and your own unique playbook of reasoning.

What is "legability" ?
Does that mean someone's legs work ?
Is it a term from orthopedics/physical therapy ?
Its it related to "legible" ?
Consider

This discussion is very odd. The theist seems to be saying faith rests on, and is a result of reason. Most non-theological, and non-Biblical. According to Paul, faith is one of the "gifts" of the Spirit. Dodgy

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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15-01-2017, 03:06 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
Every painting has a painter.
Every god has human that created it.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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15-01-2017, 04:39 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(15-01-2017 07:15 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  
(15-01-2017 07:09 AM)unfogged Wrote:  That is incredibly sad. There is no spanner in the works. Realizing that you don't have all the answers is actually liberating. It allows you to be open to learning in ways that are closed when you embrace ignorance like that.

I never said I have "all the answers", I have my answer, which is simply one of many. This don't mean that I shut out myself from learning new things

You don't have an answer, you have the illusion of an answer. That is very sad.

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15-01-2017, 11:04 PM
Why should a deity exist?
(15-01-2017 02:22 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  This discussion is very odd. The theist seems to be saying faith rests on, and is a result of reason. Most non-theological, and non-Biblical. According to Paul, faith is one of the "gifts" of the Spirit. Dodgy

Faith is a not concept applied to the belief in God's existence, a position in Paul's, and till our age, was seen as self-evident.

As he expressed quite clearly in Romans 1:20: "clearly seen, being understood by what has been made, so that no one has an excuse."

Faith on other hand is a confidendence, or trust in God fullfilling his promise, that our hopes in him are realized.

Believing that God exists requires no faith at all. You can believe that God exists and have no real faith in him. Just like I can believe you exist, without trusting that you'd keep your word.





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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-01-2017, 11:13 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(15-01-2017 11:04 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Believing that God exists requires no faith at all. You can believe that God exists and have no real faith in him. Just like I can believe you exist, without trusting that you'd keep your word.

Too bad words already have meanings, and you do not get to unilaterally redefine 'faith' to mean 'trustworthiness' instead of 'belief without evidence, or in the face of contrary evidence'. Drinking Beverage

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15-01-2017, 11:14 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(15-01-2017 11:04 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Faith is a not concept applied to the belief in God's existence, a position in Paul's, and till our age, was seen as self-evident.

Nope. It was NOT. "The fool says in his heart, there is no god". It's an ancient concept.
What god are you talking about ?

Quote:As he expressed quite clearly in Romans 1:20: "clearly seen, being understood by what has been made, so that no one has an excuse."

"No one shall come to me unless the Father draw him".
I guess Jesus didn't agree.

Quote:Faith on other hand is a confidendence, or trust in God fullfilling his promise, that our hopes in him are realized.

A what ? I never heard of a confidendence.

Quote:Believing that God exists requires no faith at all. You can believe that God exists and have no real faith in him. Just like I can believe you exist, without trusting that you'd keep your word.

Of course that's your god, I assume. Facepalm
What are the criteria you used to decide (your "assessment") that YOUR god is the real one ?

"Believing requires no faith" Facepalm
LMAO

You have a whole lot of unanswered questions left you haven't answered.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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15-01-2017, 11:42 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
Hey Tommy did you ever get around to showing that God was a more likely explanation than any other for the "empty tomb" (evidence for the empty tomb being somewhat scanty in the first place)? After all you claimed that the reason atheists didn't believe the God thing was simply because we look only at naturalistic explanations and do *not* look at the most likely one.

Of course you didn't, but you did think you could just pull bullshit out your arse and not have to ever back it up. Come to think of it, you do that every post Smile

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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16-01-2017, 05:49 AM
Why should a deity exist?
(15-01-2017 11:13 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(15-01-2017 11:04 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Believing that God exists requires no faith at all. You can believe that God exists and have no real faith in him. Just like I can believe you exist, without trusting that you'd keep your word.

Too bad words already have meanings, and you do not get to unilaterally redefine 'faith' to mean 'trustworthiness' instead of 'belief without evidence, or in the face of contrary evidence'. Drinking Beverage

No, the writings of Paul are available to all of us, and what he means by faith is pretty clear, and distinct from believing God exists.



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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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16-01-2017, 05:57 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(16-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-01-2017 11:13 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Too bad words already have meanings, and you do not get to unilaterally redefine 'faith' to mean 'trustworthiness' instead of 'belief without evidence, or in the face of contrary evidence'. Drinking Beverage
No, the writings of Paul are available to all of us, and what he means by faith is pretty clear, and distinct from believing God exists.

Not only did what Paul supposedly write contradict with what Jesus supposedly wrote (whoops), but you're arguing over the interpretation of a translation. It's possible that he meant something different, and that the word 'faith' used in the translation is either a miss-translation or an example of biases being inserted into the text.

But we know what the word means now, and how it is most often used (intentionally or otherwise) by believers today.

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16-01-2017, 05:57 AM
Why should a deity exist?
(15-01-2017 11:14 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Than clearly you haven't read the Bible:
"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see

Nope. It was NOT. "The fool says in his heart, there is no god". It's an ancient concept.
What god are you talking about ?

Quote:"No one shall come to me unless the Father draw him".
I guess Jesus didn't agree.

And apparently for believing exists equates to coming to Jesus, lol. Clearly the audience he's speaking to, the audience that rejected him, etc... all believed God exists.

Quote:A what ? I never heard of a confidendence.

Than clearly you haven't read the Bible:

"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see







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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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