Why should a deity exist?
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16-01-2017, 06:10 AM (This post was last modified: 16-01-2017 06:19 AM by Tomasia.)
Why should a deity exist?
(16-01-2017 05:57 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(16-01-2017 05:49 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, the writings of Paul are available to all of us, and what he means by faith is pretty clear, and distinct from believing God exists.

Not only did what Paul supposedly write contradict with what Jesus supposedly wrote (whoops), but you're arguing over the interpretation of a translation. It's possible that he meant something different, and that the word 'faith' used in the translation is either a miss-translation or an example of biases being inserted into the text.

But we know what the word means now, and how it is most often used (intentionally or otherwise) by believers today.

lol, we're talking about faith as defined by Paul. If you find the passage here to use the term "faith" differently than how you would like to define it in regards to Christianity, than you'd be acknowledging that it doesn't mean what many atheists attempt to interpret the passage as meaning. When atheists attempt to suggest a passage is a interpolation or a mistranslation, particularly when it's not in dispute among scholars and historians, it's often because that passage is problematic for whatever suggestion they want to make.

And I'm a believer, and as indicated I define and understand the concept as Paul wrote it (as written in Hebrews), distinct from believing God exists.

You apparently think that most believers don't share the same understanding? lol.

And I'm sure you understand the meaning of faith, if one were to say I have faith that he'll keep his word, I have faith that you can do it. I have faith in my wife, etc...

It's not hard to recognize the passage in Paul is using the term faith along these lines.

You believe that today's Christians see the term as quiet distinct from meaning, and not related to it?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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16-01-2017, 06:58 AM (This post was last modified: 16-01-2017 07:22 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(16-01-2017 05:57 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And apparently for believing exists equates to coming to Jesus, lol. Clearly the audience he's speaking to, the audience that rejected him, etc... all believed God exists.
Quote:A what ? I never heard of a confidendence.

Than clearly you haven't read the Bible:

"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see

Oh. So confidendence and confidence are the same thing ? I see.

It doesn't matter what they thought was faith, or whether ancient people thought anything. We are living NOW. Human knowledge has improved. We don't need ancient "gap fillers". (Well some don't).
"All believed God exists" Really ? Everyone on earth believed in the Hebrew deity. How amazingly uninformed you are. They were occupied by a power with many deities, among which were Roman emperors.
Even the Hebrews themselves worshiped Yahweh's WIFE for a period. Do YOU believe in Ashera ? What would they bother to say "The fool says in his heart there is no god", if "all believed in (a) god" ?

I never said anything about "an interpolation" or "mistranslation". (Nice strawman). You have no clue how "many atheists" do anything. You just make up shit about them, as that's your schtick.
You also don't know how "most believers" understand anything. They all understand everything differently, and you have no evidence for anything. You have NO polling data.

YOU haven't told us :
1. Are you or are you not, part of the "messy" YOU spoke of,
2. What are the criteria you used to make the "assessment", and answer the other questions about it.
3. What is legibility, exactly ?
4. What are you doing here ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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16-01-2017, 07:06 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(16-01-2017 06:58 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  YOU haven't told us :
1. Are you or are you not part of the "messy" YOU spoke of,
2. What are the criteria you used to make the "assessment", and answer the other questions about it.
3. What is legibility, exactly ?

Don't worry, he never will tell. He'll just carry on being a fuckwit and being surprised that everyone can see he's a fuckwit.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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16-01-2017, 07:14 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
FFS. The "faith game"? Facepalm

Quote:Oxford Dictionary:
oxford-faith

faith

Complete trust or confidence in someone or something: ‘this restores one's faith in politicians’

Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof: bereaved people who have shown supreme faith

A particular religion: the Christian faith

A strongly held belief: men with strong political faiths

Quote:Miriam-Webster:
miriam-webster-faith

faith

allegiance to duty or a person

loyalty: lost faith in the company's president

fidelity to one's promises

sincerity of intentions: acted in good faith

belief and trust in and loyalty to God

belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion

firm belief in something for which there is no proof: clinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return

complete trust

something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs: Protestant faith

on faith
: without question: took everything he said on faith

Quote:The Bible:
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; that they are without excuse:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I think it's safe to say that "faith in a spouse" is different than "faith in god".

Faith in a spouse is based on evidence. Evidence that includes little details like the fact that the spouse EXISTS and is VISIBLE and you can TALK TO THEM AND GET A REPLY.

Faith in god, on the other hand, is NOT based on evidence. This is according to the bible, supposedly god's own words.

To assert that the two definitions are interchangeable is yet another sign of theistic dishonesty.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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16-01-2017, 07:22 AM (This post was last modified: 16-01-2017 07:27 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(16-01-2017 07:14 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  I think it's safe to say that "faith in a spouse" is different than "faith in god".

Faith in a spouse is based on evidence. Evidence that includes little details like the fact that the spouse EXISTS and is VISIBLE and you can TALK TO THEM AND GET A REPLY.

Faith in god, on the other hand, is NOT based on evidence. This is according to the bible, supposedly god's own words.

To assert that the two definitions are interchangeable is yet another sign of theistic dishonesty.

The meaning of faith doesn't change whether you believe it's warranted or not. Just like if I trust someone that shouldn't be trusted, and you trust someone that's shown to be reliable, we don't mean something different by the word "trust". You might say I shouldn't trust him, or I shouldn't have faith in someone who doesn't warrant it, etc.. But the the term has a similar remaining, regardless of who it's being directed to.

I may just as well have an imaginary wife, and believe my imaginary wife is faithful to me, and yet the term faith, means the same exact thing here, if I were saying it of my real wife, just applied to what we might say in an unwarranted context.

The Hebrews passage indicates that faith is being applied to fulfillment of hope, a confidence that God will fulfill his promises. And has nothing to do with the belief that God exists at all, which folks at the time, as they still do, take as self-evident. A point only further articulated in a common theist astonishment, that can anyone look at all this, and believe God does not exist. An astonishment that there are actually people in the world that deny what seems so self-evident to them. Self-evident to folks like Paul, that no one is without excuse.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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16-01-2017, 07:33 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
You didn't answer the questions.
Apparently at Fake-Fast University they don't make you take Comparative Mythology. There are countless human concepts of deities.
Your statement "everyone believed in God" is patently false.

Answer the questions.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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16-01-2017, 08:21 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(16-01-2017 07:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The meaning of faith doesn't change whether you believe it's warranted or not. Just like if I trust someone that shouldn't be trusted, and you trust someone that's shown to be reliable, we don't mean something different by the word "trust". You might say I shouldn't trust him, or I shouldn't have faith in someone who doesn't warrant it, etc.. But the the term has a similar remaining, regardless of who it's being directed to.

Faith in god is not the same thing as trust in another human being.

Even if you claim that you are trusting in god like you would trust another human, it is not the same.

When you are talking about trust in a human, there is visible, tangible evidence. This evidence can be tested, verified and analyzed.

The holy texts themselves not only say that faith is based on the unseen, it also states that it can only come from god.

(16-01-2017 07:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I may just as well have an imaginary wife, and believe my imaginary wife is faithful to me, and yet the term faith, means the same exact thing here, if I were saying it of my real wife, just applied to what we might say in an unwarranted context.

Faith is gullibility.

Why is faith in Zeus invalid?
Faith in Thor and Odin?
Buddha?
Allah?
The Flying Spaghetti Monster?
The Tooth Fairy?

Faith in the supernatural means nothing.

Evidence is all that you have. Verifiable, testable, evidence.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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16-01-2017, 08:23 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(16-01-2017 08:21 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(16-01-2017 07:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The meaning of faith doesn't change whether you believe it's warranted or not. Just like if I trust someone that shouldn't be trusted, and you trust someone that's shown to be reliable, we don't mean something different by the word "trust". You might say I shouldn't trust him, or I shouldn't have faith in someone who doesn't warrant it, etc.. But the the term has a similar remaining, regardless of who it's being directed to.

Faith in god is not the same thing as trust in another human being.

Even if you claim that you are trusting in god like you would trust another human, it is not the same.

When you are talking about trust in a human, there is visible, tangible evidence. This evidence can be tested, verified and analyzed.

The holy texts themselves not only say that faith is based on the unseen, it also states that it can only come from god.

(16-01-2017 07:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I may just as well have an imaginary wife, and believe my imaginary wife is faithful to me, and yet the term faith, means the same exact thing here, if I were saying it of my real wife, just applied to what we might say in an unwarranted context.

Faith is gullibility.

Why is faith in Zeus invalid?
Faith in Thor and Odin?
Buddha?
Allah?
The Flying Spaghetti Monster?
The Tooth Fairy?

Faith in the supernatural means nothing.

Evidence is all that you have. Verifiable, testable, evidence.

To be fair, I'm sure Tomasia has faith that he's not a complete dipshit, which unbeknownst to him kinda proves our point. Rolleyes

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16-01-2017, 09:43 AM (This post was last modified: 16-01-2017 09:47 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(16-01-2017 08:21 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Faith in god is not the same thing as trust in another human being.

Even if you claim that you are trusting in god like you would trust another human, it is not the same.

When you are talking about trust in a human, there is visible, tangible evidence. This evidence can be tested, verified and analyzed.

The only difference between trusting things that have tangible evidence, and things that don't have tangible evidence. Is one is based on tangible evidence, and the other is not. The meaning of the word trust is the same, just like if I said i trust my dog not to pee on the carpet, I mean the same thing by the word trust, as if I said I trust my wife to cook dinner while I'm away, or "I trust that my invisible friend will tidy up my apartment".

Secondly when it comes to hope for the future, trust or faith in regards to something in the future, there's never going to be tangible evidence for this occurring, or existing, because it hasn't happened yet. You can make a prediction based on evidence, but you have no tangible evidence of the outcome. I.E I have faith that my wife will never in her life cheat on me. But there's no tangible evidence that she hasn't cheated on me in the future, for the sheer fact that the future hasn't happened yet.

Quote:The holy texts themselves not only say that faith is based on the unseen, it also states that it can only come from god.

The bible does not equate faith, to a belief in God's existence. When Jesus speak of those with little faith, or comments on the astonishing faith of others, when Paul speaks faith not just in the Hebrews passage, when he further expands it with examples, of Abraham etc... it has nothing to do with a belief in God existence, but akin to "trust" in God, a confidence in God. Not about his existence, but in regards to what he will do. If you think otherwise, you clearly have not read the bible. Either that or you read it like an idiot.

What you and others seem to be engaging in is a bit of anachronism, trying to ascribe your own modern anxieties, and predicaments unto the past, to individuals and communities that clearly did not have them. The writers of the bible didn't see believing that God exists as a matter of faith, instead they took it as a self-evident truth. Where as faith, is almost exclusively used in the bible, to indicate a trust in God, a belief in what God will do for his people.

You just serve as further proof, how naively out of touch atheists such as yourself and others are, with everyone else. Perhaps by spending so much time contemplating inanimate objects, resulted in a severe lack of understanding of people unlike yourself.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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16-01-2017, 09:45 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(15-01-2017 09:59 AM)mordant Wrote:  I am curious what your PERSONAL belief is apart from this argument. Do YOU believe in a god who is currently personal and interventionist?


I do believe in a personal God, but in terms of an interventionist God, the sort that needs to constantly tinker with his creation to get it just right, no I don’t believe in such a God, like the sort suggested by folks like Behe, who had to stick his finger in from time to time, to insure our evolutionary history led us here. In this sense I’m a quasi-determinist, that the story was written long before it was conceived, to play out the way it will.

Quote:If yes, then you are just leaving him out of your argument for ID on the premise that he is not necessary to infer ID, but you are going to strongly tend to infer that the Designer is YOUR god. If not, then you are likely going to be biased, if at all, in favor of a more deist variety of god.

Couple of things, here, I’m not an exclusive monotheists. So I don’t hold that a muslim, or a Hindhu or a Jew, or a deist that believes in a creator God, believe’s in a different God/creator/designer than I do. But rather we disagree about his nature, and revelation. It’s more like arguing about what we think of Bucky as a person, whether he cares about us, etc.. and not like talking about two separate people who just happen to have similar names. If there was a line here, it would start with believing in a Creator, and then contemplating based on his creation, what can be said about his relationship to us. It’s the second question in which Christianity fits, and that second question involves a conversation I’m not interested in having. A transition from external contemplation, to an internal one. And for a variety of reasons that conversation is just not possible between us.

And as previously indicated, a conversation regarding why I believe God exists, is not the same as a conversation as to why I believe Christianity is true. Christianity could be false, and I’d still believe God exists.

Quote:If you think you can infer design from the observable universe without saying anything for the moment about the designer, I can go along with that as a first step. But even if you succeed in making a case it does not necessarily lead where you might think it does.

There is no second step, we’re just discussing that first step, full stop. When the first step is discussed as exhaustively as I would like, then i’m done. As I said the conversation between why I believe God exists, and why I believe Christianity is true, are fundamentally two different conversations.

Quote:It is not a private and eccentric playbook of my own invention. It is just standard rules of logic and burden of proof, and a very widely held view of what constitutes actual evidence and how it's evaluated in a way that tends to lead towards an understanding of experienced reality that is accurately descriptive and predictive of what one observes / can expect to observe.

No there’s no rule of logic, that claims that we can’t infer, intention, purpose, design, without first establishing who or what the creator, or intentional agent is. In fact we do this all the time. If I came back to my house and notice my tv and computers were gone and the door knob was broken, i can infer from the basis of this that someone broke into my apartment and stole my stuff. I need not establish who robbed me to do so, or even establish that it was a human, and not a leprechaun, etc… I can infer that the objects went missing, the door was broken into, by intentional agents, without establishing anything about those agents.


Quote:At this point it would be great if you would make ANY sort of supportable inference, with or without identifying the alleged perpetrator. Go for it. What have you got, apart from that it seems truthy to you or you are incredulous that other explanations could apply?

Much of it was already brought at the beginning of our conversation, Post 41 and prior. And secondly I don’t believe you’d be able to offer another explanation. Usually what you and others seem to do is, provide one series of scientific explanations, that in reality I don’t necessary disagree with. The question is ontological, and if properly understood the only thing you’d be left with, is a claim that it just is, it just did.

Perhaps an analogy would help. Imagine if were claiming an iPhone was designed, And you try to argue that isn’t by pointing to the way the battery communicates with the CPU, and the cpu communicates to the graphics chips, and display etc… and how they do so naturally, without any additional tinkering. Perhaps you could extend even further, to point out how the variety of machines operate in producing and assembling it parts. You explanations here would be entirely about the functions and mechanics here, and not about whether the iPhone was designed or not.

This is what I’d say your explanations amount to. Perhaps you’ll even recognize this. All you’d be left with is claiming that this entire system, all of which brought it about, was entirely unintentional, all it’s profound and intricate properties, were just present, are just that way it is. That matter had the properties when arranged in certain ways to produce conscious self-aware creature, that it’s a property it just had. That the sort of creatures that resulted from it, with a nagging suspicion that life is more than the sum of it’s part, that there’s something spiritual, transcendent, moral, meaningful, and purposeful about it, are just pursuing an illusion.

Why a desire, for meaning, truth, fulfillment, purpose, goodness, to find something to live for, if those things we’re so inherently inclined to seek does not exist? The richness, complexity beauty, that need not be here, but is.

Stuff like this, make it hard for to believe than anyone can with a straight face, truly believe it was all unintentional. That all of us at some level see an order in the midst of chaos, that we can’t decipher all that well. It’s perhaps why there’s a lack of confidence, and this desire to be comfortable with the uncertainty, of what seems indecipherable. Why you’re left with a lack a belief, rather than a belief. A true atheists, in that old, traditional sense, never seems to have existed. There are no fools who truly believe in their hearts that God does not exist, though you might occasionally find someone pretending to be one. In the pursuit of being honest to himself, the atheist can only profess his lack of belief.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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