Why should a deity exist?
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16-01-2017, 10:12 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(16-01-2017 09:45 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-01-2017 09:59 AM)mordant Wrote:  I am curious what your PERSONAL belief is apart from this argument. Do YOU believe in a god who is currently personal and interventionist?
I do believe in a personal God, but in terms of an interventionist God, the sort that needs to constantly tinker with his creation to get it just right, no I don’t believe in such a God, like the sort suggested by folks like Behe, who had to stick his finger in from time to time, to insure our evolutionary history led us here. In this sense I’m a quasi-determinist, that the story was written long before it was conceived, to play out the way it will.
I do not see how a god can be personal and not be interventionist. Depending on definitions I guess. A personal god is one who relates in some way to you personally. Given that most Christians don't claim prayer to be two-way communication in the sense that god is supposed to send messages back, the ONLY way he could interact with you would be to intervene through answered prayer or arranging circumstances such that the enlightenment or met needs that you're seeking somehow come to you. Therefore a personal god HAS to be an interventionist god. You seem to mean "interventionist" in the larger sense of guided evolution and the like, and that's fine, but if he doesn't intervene in your personal life then he is not a personal god unless by "personal" you just mean he communicated with humanity in some more general way such as through inspiring the Bible.

For your own practical purposes a god who does not intervene in your personal life is indistinguishable from an absent, indifferent or non-existent god. So I am trying to understand in what sense you can actually distinguish this god you say is personal yet not interventionist, from no god at all.

No time to respond to the rest of this just now, will be back later.
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16-01-2017, 11:04 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(16-01-2017 09:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The only difference between trusting things that have tangible evidence, and things that don't have tangible evidence. Is one is based on tangible evidence, and the other is not.

Yes. Without evidence there is no basis for trust.

(16-01-2017 09:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Secondly when it comes to hope for the future, trust or faith in regards to something in the future, there's never going to be tangible evidence for this occurring, or existing, because it hasn't happened yet.

We have of current and past behaviors and patterns as evidence for or against our beliefs in the future.

As an example, religion has failed in all prophecies, especially those that involve the "End of the World". Combine this with the lack of evidence and there is no reason for religious faith.

(16-01-2017 09:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The bible does not equate faith, to a belief in God's existence.

I did not say that it did.

(16-01-2017 09:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  If you think otherwise, you clearly have not read the bible. Either that or you read it like an idiot.

I read the bible like I read any other book.

If I read a non-fiction book that makes outrageous claims, I research to see if the evidence supports those outrageous claims. If the evidence and science repudiates those claims then I am forced to conclude that the book is of no use and untrustworthy.

An idiot is someone who assumes a book is true before reading it.

An idiot is someone who, upon reading that book and discovering that it is filled with flaws, contradictions, and impossible events, continues to delude themselves that the book is true.

(16-01-2017 09:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What you and others seem to be engaging in is a bit of anachronism, trying to ascribe your own modern anxieties, and predicaments unto the past, to individuals and communities that clearly did not have them.

While you and your ilk seem bent on thrusting anachronistic beliefs from the past onto the modern world. Condemning women, gays and nonbelievers according to the beliefs of barbaric madmen who have been dead for thousands of years. Trying to force others to waste their lives conforming to your meaningless and pointless laws. Spreading hatred, mistrust and xenophobia.

(16-01-2017 09:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The writers of the bible didn't see believing that God exists as a matter of faith, instead they took it as a self-evident truth. Where as faith, is almost exclusively used in the bible, to indicate a trust in God, a belief in what God will do for his people.

The writers of the bible didn't know any better. Their gods where the best attempt that they could make to understand their world. Ever notice that we don't have thunder-gods and sea-gods anymore? The gods of sickness and plague? Nope. Religion was primitive mans means of answering his questions.

(16-01-2017 09:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You just serve as further proof, how naively out of touch atheists such as yourself and others are, with everyone else.

Yes, the way religion has dragged secularism back into the theological fold is truly a testament to the power of the one true god. The growing numbers of churches and the faithful testify to his majesty. Truly the seminaries and religious orders are overflowing with students and candidates.

(16-01-2017 09:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Perhaps by spending so much time contemplating inanimate objects, resulted in a severe lack of understanding of people unlike yourself.

Perhaps spending so much time studying theology has warped your integrity. I suppose after you become adept at lying to yourself, lying to others comes as second nature.

You continually denigrate and deride evidence because you know that you have none.

In a court of law, does the jury consider evidence or do they consult the spirits?

When the astrophysicists calculated the guidance systems for the moon missions, do you think they prayed for the answers?

When penicillin and vaccines were developed, did the formulas come from the bible or a laboratory?

Science and evidence are fine for you until your god is mentioned and then it all becomes untrustworthy.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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16-01-2017, 11:14 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(16-01-2017 10:12 AM)mordant Wrote:  
(16-01-2017 09:45 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I do believe in a personal God, but in terms of an interventionist God, the sort that needs to constantly tinker with his creation to get it just right, no I don’t believe in such a God, like the sort suggested by folks like Behe, who had to stick his finger in from time to time, to insure our evolutionary history led us here. In this sense I’m a quasi-determinist, that the story was written long before it was conceived, to play out the way it will.
I do not see how a god can be personal and not be interventionist. Depending on definitions I guess. A personal god is one who relates in some way to you personally. Given that most Christians don't claim prayer to be two-way communication in the sense that god is supposed to send messages back, the ONLY way he could interact with you would be to intervene through answered prayer or arranging circumstances such that the enlightenment or met needs that you're seeking somehow come to you. Therefore a personal god HAS to be an interventionist god. You seem to mean "interventionist" in the larger sense of guided evolution and the like, and that's fine, but if he doesn't intervene in your personal life then he is not a personal god unless by "personal" you just mean he communicated with humanity in some more general way such as through inspiring the Bible.

For your own practical purposes a god who does not intervene in your personal life is indistinguishable from an absent, indifferent or non-existent god. So I am trying to understand in what sense you can actually distinguish this god you say is personal yet not interventionist, from no god at all.

No time to respond to the rest of this just now, will be back later.

A 'personal' god that doesn't actually do anything is the epitome of impersonal, and not realizing that is 1984 levels of double-speak.

Or as Tomasia is concerned, par for the fuckin' course.

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16-01-2017, 12:35 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(16-01-2017 11:04 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(16-01-2017 09:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The only difference between trusting things that have tangible evidence, and things that don't have tangible evidence. Is one is based on tangible evidence, and the other is not.

Perhaps spending so much time studying theology has warped your integrity. I suppose after you become adept at lying to yourself, lying to others comes as second nature.

You continually denigrate and deride evidence because you know that you have none.

In a court of law, does the jury consider evidence or do they consult the spirits?

When the astrophysicists calculated the guidance systems for the moon missions, do you think they prayed for the answers?

When penicillin and vaccines were developed, did the formulas come from the bible or a laboratory?

Science and evidence are fine for you until your god is mentioned and then it all becomes untrustworthy.


I'd like to posit a little hypothetical for Tomasia.....

If one suffers a stroke or heart attack at home, does one fall to their knees in prayer, or phone for an ambulance? Which comes first Tom? "Faith" in the supernatural or gods, or "faith" in doctors and science?

I note too that you chose to ignore addressing my couple of simple questions in my comment #156, particularly.....

In effect, you're saying that you're not required to prove your god's existence because it's logically impossible, and attempting to use physical attributes or effects or signs of its existence is "straying" from the question. Using this same logic, can you thereby prove to us that leprechauns do not exist?

Consider

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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16-01-2017, 12:41 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(16-01-2017 10:12 AM)mordant Wrote:  For your own practical purposes a god who does not intervene in your personal life is indistinguishable from an absent, indifferent or non-existent god. So I am trying to understand in what sense you can actually distinguish this god you say is personal yet not interventionist, from no god at all.

It's gonna be interesting to see exactly how Tom addresses this vexing (for theists) question—considering its wonderfully incontestable truth.

Consider

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16-01-2017, 12:45 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(16-01-2017 12:41 PM)SYZ Wrote:  It's gonna be interesting to see exactly how Tom addresses this vexing (for theists) question—considering its wonderfully incontestable truth.

Consider

With silence? Big Grin

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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16-01-2017, 02:00 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(16-01-2017 09:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The only difference between trusting things that have tangible evidence, and things that don't have tangible evidence. Is one is based on tangible evidence, and the other is not.

Consider
Facepalm
Read that again.
LMAO.
Really ?

No shit Sherlock.
Laugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out load

Brilliant. Simply brilliant.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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16-01-2017, 02:32 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(16-01-2017 10:12 AM)mordant Wrote:  I do not see how a god can be personal and not be interventionist. Depending on definitions I guess. A personal god is one who relates in some way to you personally.

I can agree with that, also adding it’s one we relate to personally. For a Christian like myself, the idea of a personal God, is based on God revealing himself in Christ. And the way in which the story, being, and message is constant point of reflection in all the meaningful areas of my personal life, in thinking of my mother and father, my marriage, life, death, morality, tragedy, misfortune, joy, friendship, community, hope, perception of self, etc…. An intimate point of reference, that permeates among every other personal area that matters to me.

Quote:Given that most Christians don't claim prayer to be two-way communication in the sense that god is supposed to send messages back, the ONLY way he could interact with you would be to intervene through answered prayer or arranging circumstances such that the enlightenment or met needs that you're seeking somehow come to you.

As indicated earlier, I’m a quasi-determinist here. The story has already been written. For omniscient God, no prayer to him discloses additional information, that he would need to change the preordained course. And for an unchanging God, a prayer does not change his mind. A god that needed to intervene as the result of unforeseen circumstances, clearly wouldn’t be omniscient. I don’t pray for God to change his mind, I pray for my own change, for strength, etc…. A prayer in this sense is for me, and not for sake of nudging God, for the sake of revealing my own insecurities, and hopes.

In regards to answered prayer, atheists like to draw a distinction a believer is unlikely to make. A couple praying to conceive, and one day being able to give birth, would be grateful to God, even though they acknowledge that the circumstances, the treatments they received by medial professionals etc, were an entirely natural series of events. The course of history, the course of the natural world, are in this sense a product of the will of God. There’s no aspect of reality that operates outside of that, it’s always inside of it.

Quote:You seem to mean "interventionist" in the larger sense of guided evolution and the like, and that's fine,

I do, I also mean it in regards to the same sort of tinkering applied by such an interventionist God in any other area of life, including my personal life. Such a God would seem more incompetent than omniscient. In fact the idea of a God for whom the outcome of events are unknown to him, are undecided, until a man says a prayer, is perhaps a form of blasphemy, in reality the prayer, the outcome are all known, the course of events that led to it, the outcome of it all decided, long before I ever said a word on my knees. There’s not too many ways to see this differently when dealing with an unchanging, and all knowing being.

Quote:he is not a personal god unless by "personal" you just mean he communicated with humanity in some more general way such as through inspiring the Bible.

I’d say it’s more akin to this, than let say a God whose sort of like a call center, having multiple different conversations all at once, or the way in which I have a conversation with you. That any truth about God, his will and purpose, are conveyed kind of like the way an author conveys his meaning of a story to his audience, except in this case we are both the characters and the audience of that story. And I think it would be difficult to conceptualize it any other way in regards to an unchanging God.

I do not see how a god can be personal and not be interventionist. Depending on definitions I guess. A personal god is one who relates in some way to you personally. [/quote]

I can agree with that, also adding it’s one we relate to personally. For a Christian like myself, the idea of a personal God, is based on God revealing himself in Christ. And the way in which the story, being, and message is constant point of reflection in all the meaningful areas of my personal life, in thinking of my mother and father, my marriage, life, death, morality, tragedy, misfortune, joy, friendship, community, hope, perception of self, etc…. An intimate point of reference, that permeates among every other personal area that matters to me.

Quote:Given that most Christians don't claim prayer to be two-way communication in the sense that god is supposed to send messages back, the ONLY way he could interact with you would be to intervene through answered prayer or arranging circumstances such that the enlightenment or met needs that you're seeking somehow come to you.

As indicated earlier, I’m a quasi-determinist here. The story has already been written. For omniscient God, no prayer to him discloses additional information, that he would need to change the preordained course. And for an unchanging God, a prayer does not change his mind. A god that needed to intervene as the result of unforeseen circumstances, clearly wouldn’t be omniscient. I don’t pray for God to change his mind, I pray for my own change, for strength, etc…. A prayer in this sense is for me, and not for sake of nudging God, for the sake of revealing my own insecurities, and hopes.

In regards to answered prayer, atheists like to draw a distinction a believer is unlikely to make. A couple praying to conceive, and one day being able to give birth, would be grateful to God, even though they acknowledge that the circumstances, the treatments they received by medial professionals etc, were an entirely natural series of events. The course of history, the course of the natural world, are in this sense a product of the will of God. There’s no aspect of reality that operates outside of that, it’s always inside of it.

Quote:You seem to mean "interventionist" in the larger sense of guided evolution and the like, and that's fine,

I do, I also mean it in regards to the same sort of tinkering applied by such an interventionist God in any other area of life, including my personal life. Such a God would seem more incompetent than omniscient. In fact the idea of a God for whom the outcome of events are unknown to him, are undecided, until a man says a prayer, is perhaps a form of blasphemy, in reality the prayer, the outcome are all known, the course of events that led to it, the outcome of it all decided, long before I ever said a word on my knees. There’s not too many ways to see this differently when dealing with an unchanging, and all knowing being.

Quote:he is not a personal god unless by "personal" you just mean he communicated with humanity in some more general way such as through inspiring the Bible.

I’d say it’s more akin to this, than let say a God whose sort of like a call center, having multiple different conversations all at once, or the way in which I have a conversation with you. That any truth about God, his will and purpose, are conveyed kind of like the way an author conveys his meaning of a story to his audience, except in this case we are both the characters and the audience of that story. And I think it would be difficult to conceptualize it any other way in regards to an unchanging God.

Quote:No time to respond to the rest of this just now, will be back later.

No problem.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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16-01-2017, 02:37 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(10-01-2017 02:33 PM)Cypher44 Wrote:  So.. after my last posts, and the users on this site making it clear, I'm just repeating stuff. I got a good question from a couple of users on this site.

Why does there need to be an deity??
Good question.
The answer .........

You have zero reputation in the forum of the false atheists, and after such long discussion. Not far are you from the Heavenly Father. Thumbsup
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16-01-2017, 02:52 PM (This post was last modified: 16-01-2017 03:00 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(16-01-2017 12:35 PM)SYZ Wrote:  In effect, you're saying that you're not required to prove your god's existence because it's logically impossible, and attempting to use physical attributes or effects or signs of its existence is "straying" from the question. Using this same logic, can you thereby prove to us that leprechauns do not exist?

Consider

No that's not in effect what I'm saying.

What I am saying is that the proposition that God exists, does not contain a claims about the physical properties of God, so to ask for evidence of this, would be making a categorical mistake. What it does often contain is a series of teleological arguments, so if one is to dispute anything about God existence, it would be this.

Unlike the proposition that leprechauns exist, in which a variety of physical descriptions are implied by it, little green men, from Ireland, who wear funny hats, etc... place gold at the end of the rainbow etc...

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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