Why should a deity exist?
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17-01-2017, 01:33 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(17-01-2017 12:55 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I said "when PEOPLE", not when "writers of the Bible"....

Which people? Clearly I don't. No christian I personally know does. And clearly not the writers of scripture. So which "people"?

Atheists?

Is it some people, most people? Most christians? Most religious people christian and otherwise? Most atheists?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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17-01-2017, 01:37 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(17-01-2017 12:28 PM)Cypher44 Wrote:  These people know what they're discussing very well.. As for you.. judging from your rep... You seem to be a fountain of bullshit.

No offence.

His cup runneth over with bs. I envision it not a fountain but more like this...

[Image: The%2Bhypnotic%2Bflow%2Bof%2Ba%2Bwaterfall.gif]

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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17-01-2017, 01:40 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(17-01-2017 12:52 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Your single definition of what 'faith" meant to them is WRONG.
http://caseyjaywork.wordpress.com/2012/08/10/184/
You may be partially correct, but you have not explained why what they thought then, should be relevant TODAY.

It's interesting that you decided to quote an article that basically supports what I said here:

" In noun form—which is more pertinent to Paul’s letters, e.g. Gal. 3:9 refers to “those who have faith”—”faith” means “confidence in God and trust in his power to heal and save” (ibid 224).

Pauline “faith,” then, is trusting belief in God. It is not merely an attitude or orientation, nor is it only a descriptive claim about the world. It is both of these things: the faithful believe that God is real, and has certain attributes (almighty, self-revealing, etc.), and they trust in God to justify them. (Paul seems unconcerned with faith or belief in God’s existence per se, perhaps because he takes it as too obvious to be seriously disputed: in Rom. 1:20 he writes that God’s “invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”) I"

"So this is what “faith” is, for Paul: faith is the belief that God will keep his promise, and deliver “the world,” or at least the faithful, from it’s “(prison) of sin.”

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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17-01-2017, 01:47 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(17-01-2017 01:40 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-01-2017 12:52 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Your single definition of what 'faith" meant to them is WRONG.
http://caseyjaywork.wordpress.com/2012/08/10/184/
You may be partially correct, but you have not explained why what they thought then, should be relevant TODAY.

It's interesting that you decided to quote an article that basically supports what I said here:

" In noun form—which is more pertinent to Paul’s letters, e.g. Gal. 3:9 refers to “those who have faith”—”faith” means “confidence in God and trust in his power to heal and save” (ibid 224).

Pauline “faith,” then, is trusting belief in God. It is not merely an attitude or orientation, nor is it only a descriptive claim about the world. It is both of these things: the faithful believe that God is real, and has certain attributes (almighty, self-revealing, etc.), and they trust in God to justify them. (Paul seems unconcerned with faith or belief in God’s existence per se, perhaps because he takes it as too obvious to be seriously disputed: in Rom. 1:20 he writes that God’s “invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”) I"

"So this is what “faith” is, for Paul: faith is the belief that God will keep his promise, and deliver “the world,” or at least the faithful, from it’s “(prison) of sin.”


Heads up Tommy.

You said as Bucky quoted "you did an assessment", Bucky has asked nicely for you to outline your criteria used in this assessment. PLEASE DO SO.. cause I want to know the criteria too.

Thanks in advance.

Oh no. He's here - God
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17-01-2017, 02:39 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(17-01-2017 01:33 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-01-2017 12:55 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I said "when PEOPLE", not when "writers of the Bible"....

Which people? Clearly I don't. No christian I personally know does. And clearly not the writers of scripture. So which "people"?

Atheists?

Is it some people, most people? Most christians? Most religious people christian and otherwise? Most atheists?

Well YOU ought to know. YOU said :

Quote:and someone talking about "faith" in a person, is that one is talking about god, and the other is talking about a person.

Who were you talking about ?
Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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17-01-2017, 02:45 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(16-01-2017 09:45 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  There are no fools who truly believe in their hearts that God does not exist, though you might occasionally find someone pretending to be one. In the pursuit of being honest to himself, the atheist can only profess his lack of belief.

You claim I'm a liar? Well I claim you are one. You're just a dickhead who can't bear the thought that there's no God so you invent all kinds of fantasies to try and bolster your belief, but you know in your heart that it's all shit.

How do ya like them apples Tommy?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-01-2017, 03:37 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(17-01-2017 01:47 PM)Cypher44 Wrote:  You said as Bucky quoted "you did an assessment", Bucky has asked nicely for you to outline your criteria used in this assessment. PLEASE DO SO.. cause I want to know the criteria too.

Thanks in advance.

"According my assessment, we’re most likely a part of a created ordered, regardless if my religious beliefs are true or not. And according to your assessments it’s not. Though its quite likely that we are looking at two different things, two different sets of information, and observations, in drawing our assessments here."

I’m assuming you’re referring to this earlier statement of mine?

If so, some of the non-exhaustive factors that lead me that conclusions are as follows:

The human desire for meaning and purpose, that near universal inclination that there’s something more to all this, that life is more than the sum of it’s parts. The universal sense that there something spiritual, transcendent, sacred about it all. Matter having the properties when arranged in certain configuration to produce conscious, self-aware being, with such inclinations. The human desire for truth, and goodness. That our ultimate desire is not merely to survive this life, but find something to live for, a sense of a goal, purpose, that is to be obtained, The human inclination to see morality, as matter of obligations and duties.

The human tendency to structure our lives as a part of a narrative, often structured religiously. The convergence of religious themes, the similarities that develop in narratives they see themselves as a part, those repeated themes and elements, like sacrifices, saviors, messiahs, moral convergence on principles like the golden rule, of humanity as fallen, lost, a wounded creature. Themes of redemption and ultimate restoration.

The excesses beauty, complexity, and richness, far more than ever need be.

This is not an exhaustive list, just a few things off the top of my head, that lead me to not see it all meaningless noise, but there’s there’s something to it, a created ordered.

And this is without mentioning anything particularly christian, or that one thing that illuminates the Gospel, that always seems quite difficult to express or articulate for some reason or the other. A foundational thing, what one would give his entire life to possess, when seen is acknowledged as the source of everything else.

“At the deep bottom of the mine where the gold is at there aint none of that. There's just the pure ore. That forever thing. That you dont think is there. …..That thing that makes it possible to ladle out benedictions upon the heads of strangers instead of curses. It's all the same thing. And it aint but one thing. Just one.”

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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17-01-2017, 03:40 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(17-01-2017 03:37 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-01-2017 01:47 PM)Cypher44 Wrote:  You said as Bucky quoted "you did an assessment", Bucky has asked nicely for you to outline your criteria used in this assessment. PLEASE DO SO.. cause I want to know the criteria too.

Thanks in advance.

"According my assessment, we’re most likely a part of a created ordered, regardless if my religious beliefs are true or not. And according to your assessments it’s not. Though its quite likely that we are looking at two different things, two different sets of information, and observations, in drawing our assessments here."

I’m assuming you’re referring to this earlier statement of mine?

If so, some of the non-exhaustive factors that lead me that conclusions are as follows:

The human desire for meaning and purpose, that near universal inclination that there’s something more to all this, that life is more than the sum of it’s parts. The universal sense that there something spiritual, transcendent, sacred about it all. Matter having the properties when arranged in certain configuration to produce conscious, self-aware being, with such inclinations. The human desire for truth, and goodness. That our ultimate desire is not merely to survive this life, but find something to live for, a sense of a goal, purpose, that is to be obtained, The human inclination to see morality, as matter of obligations and duties.

The human tendency to structure our lives as a part of a narrative, often structured religiously. The convergence of religious themes, the similarities that develop in narratives they see themselves as a part, those repeated themes and elements, like sacrifices, saviors, messiahs, moral convergence on principles like the golden rule, of humanity as fallen, lost, a wounded creature. Themes of redemption and ultimate restoration.

The excesses beauty, complexity, and richness, far more than ever need be.

This is not an exhaustive list, just a few things off the top of my head, that lead me to not see it all meaningless noise, but there’s there’s something to it, a created ordered.

And this is without mentioning anything particularly christian, or that one thing that illuminates the Gospel, that always seems quite difficult to express or articulate for some reason or the other. A foundational thing, what one would give his entire life to possess, when seen is acknowledged as the source of everything else.

“At the deep bottom of the mine where the gold is at there aint none of that. There's just the pure ore. That forever thing. That you dont think is there. …..That thing that makes it possible to ladle out benedictions upon the heads of strangers instead of curses. It's all the same thing. And it aint but one thing. Just one.”

Thanks Tommy Thumbsup

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17-01-2017, 03:49 PM (This post was last modified: 17-01-2017 03:57 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(17-01-2017 01:40 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-01-2017 12:52 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Your single definition of what 'faith" meant to them is WRONG.
http://caseyjaywork.wordpress.com/2012/08/10/184/
You may be partially correct, but you have not explained why what they thought then, should be relevant TODAY.

It's interesting that you decided to quote an article that basically supports what I said here:

" In noun form—which is more pertinent to Paul’s letters, e.g. Gal. 3:9 refers to “those who have faith”—”faith” means “confidence in God and trust in his power to heal and save” (ibid 224).

Pauline “faith,” then, is trusting belief in God. It is not merely an attitude or orientation, nor is it only a descriptive claim about the world. It is both of these things: the faithful believe that God is real, and has certain attributes (almighty, self-revealing, etc.), and they trust in God to justify them. (Paul seems unconcerned with faith or belief in God’s existence per se, perhaps because he takes it as too obvious to be seriously disputed: in Rom. 1:20 he writes that God’s “invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”) I"

"So this is what “faith” is, for Paul: faith is the belief that God will keep his promise, and deliver “the world,” or at least the faithful, from it’s “(prison) of sin.”

I said you were PARTIALLY correct. you left out the part that shows you are partially wrong. Not surprising.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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17-01-2017, 03:54 PM (This post was last modified: 17-01-2017 03:58 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(17-01-2017 03:37 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  The human desire for meaning and purpose, that near universal inclination that there’s something more to all this, that life is more than the sum of it’s parts. The universal sense that there something spiritual, transcendent, sacred about it all. Matter having the properties when arranged in certain configuration to produce conscious, self-aware being, with such inclinations. The human desire for truth, and goodness. That our ultimate desire is not merely to survive this life, but find something to live for, a sense of a goal, purpose, that is to be obtained, The human inclination to see morality, as matter of obligations and duties.

The human tendency to structure our lives as a part of a narrative, often structured religiously. The convergence of religious themes, the similarities that develop in narratives they see themselves as a part, those repeated themes and elements, like sacrifices, saviors, messiahs, moral convergence on principles like the golden rule, of humanity as fallen, lost, a wounded creature. Themes of redemption and ultimate restoration.

The excesses beauty, complexity, and richness, far more than ever need be.

That's what I thought.
You have not in ANY way answered the question. That's not an "assessment".

None of those things have and criteria or standards. It's all just biased ''god of the gaps" nonsense and generizations. You were asked SPECIFICALLY, "how much order and beauty" is required for you to jump to your conclusion. You *have* no criteria.

Answer the questions.

You have not answered the question about your "messy" thought process crack.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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