Why should a deity exist?
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17-01-2017, 03:56 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(17-01-2017 03:37 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  And this is without mentioning anything particularly christian, or that one thing that illuminates the Gospel, that always seems quite difficult to express or articulate for some reason or the other.

The reason is it's all BS.

The universe is full of wonder and beauty.
The knee-jerk reaction that it must be due to a god is ignorant and groundless.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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17-01-2017, 04:00 PM
Why should a deity exist?
(17-01-2017 03:54 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You were asked SPECIFICALLY, "how much order and beauty" is required for you to jump to your conclusion.

Don't know, never thought of quantifying the amount I needed to draw one conclusion over the next.

Quote:Answer the questions.

You have not answered the question about your "messy" thought process crack.

Sure, it's messy too. Nothings ever particularly neat for biological beings.





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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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17-01-2017, 06:07 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(17-01-2017 04:00 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You were asked SPECIFICALLY, "how much order and beauty" is required for you to jump to your conclusion.

Don't know, never thought of quantifying the amount I needed to draw one conclusion over the next.

That's why it's not really an "assessment". Just a statement of ad populum bias.

Quote:Sure, it's messy too. Nothings ever particularly neat for biological beings.

Read what you said a few pages back about messy thinking.
Your statement about "messy thinking" was an attempt to categorize and divide and demean a group. Now you are singing another tune when called out on it.

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17-01-2017, 07:07 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(17-01-2017 01:31 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-01-2017 11:12 AM)mordant Wrote:  Nope. There are two common usages of the word "faith" in English. Religious faith, and trust. They are almost opposite things. And theists are constantly conflating them, trying to legitimize religious faith as a variant of trust.

I'm talking about the usage of the term faith in the bible. Where it clearly is a variant of trust.
Uh-oh. "Clearly" is one of those words that invariably signals that someone is making an assertion without presenting evidence. Here is my evidence:

"Without faith it is impossible to please god".

If faith is trust, and based on evidence, it should have nothing to do with (dis)pleasing god, it has to do with facts on the ground; if anything god should be displeased with someone operating contrary to facts. It is the faithless who are sent to perdition, not the faithful.
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17-01-2017, 09:14 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
Seems like faith can be literally anything, and be the excuse for pretty much anything and everything.


Hebrews 11 :
4 By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.

5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”[a] For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[c] 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.

23 By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.

24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.

31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.[d]

32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning;[e] they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised
,

40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

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18-01-2017, 05:11 AM
Why should a deity exist?
(17-01-2017 07:07 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(17-01-2017 01:31 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm talking about the usage of the term faith in the bible. Where it clearly is a variant of trust.
Uh-oh. "Clearly" is one of those words that invariably signals that someone is making an assertion without presenting evidence. Here is my evidence.

"Without faith it is impossible to please god".

If faith is trust, and based on evidence, it should have nothing to do with (dis)pleasing god, it has to do with facts on the ground;

Again faith is not trust based on evidence. Pretty much no definition requires that it be based on evidence. It's defined as a " complete trust or confidence in someone or something." regardless of if its based on evidence, past experience or not.

Secondly if my wife or friends didn't trust me I'd be "displeased". I except them to trust to me.

And thirdly in Paul's passage he uses a variety of OT characters as examples of faith. In all those stories god directly communicated with these characters, did what he said he would do, always fulfilled his promises.

So your attempt to define faith as a term null of such experiences, doesn't work when in comes to the use of the writers of scripture.

In fact even when it comes to many believers, in their perception, they're God has always kept his promises to his people throughout history. Never let them down, etc. In their view, God has a history of past experiences, that shows that He keeps his word, is to be trusted.








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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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18-01-2017, 08:06 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
That was 23 pages of Tomasia induced deja vu.
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18-01-2017, 08:51 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(18-01-2017 05:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Again faith is not trust based on evidence. Pretty much no definition requires that it be based on evidence. It's defined as a " complete trust or confidence in someone or something." regardless of if its based on evidence, past experience or not.

But you said you "made an assessment".
So now you're saying your assessment was based on nothing.
I see.
Dodgy

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18-01-2017, 11:32 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(17-01-2017 03:37 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-01-2017 01:47 PM)Cypher44 Wrote:  You said as Bucky quoted "you did an assessment", Bucky has asked nicely for you to outline your criteria used in this assessment. PLEASE DO SO.. cause I want to know the criteria too.

Thanks in advance.

"According my assessment, we’re most likely a part of a created ordered, regardless if my religious beliefs are true or not. And according to your assessments it’s not. Though its quite likely that we are looking at two different things, two different sets of information, and observations, in drawing our assessments here."

I’m assuming you’re referring to this earlier statement of mine?

If so, some of the non-exhaustive factors that lead me that conclusions are as follows:

The human desire for meaning and purpose, that near universal inclination that there’s something more to all this, that life is more than the sum of it’s parts. The universal sense that there something spiritual, transcendent, sacred about it all. Matter having the properties when arranged in certain configuration to produce conscious, self-aware being, with such inclinations. The human desire for truth, and goodness. That our ultimate desire is not merely to survive this life, but find something to live for, a sense of a goal, purpose, that is to be obtained, The human inclination to see morality, as matter of obligations and duties.

The human tendency to structure our lives as a part of a narrative, often structured religiously. The convergence of religious themes, the similarities that develop in narratives they see themselves as a part, those repeated themes and elements, like sacrifices, saviors, messiahs, moral convergence on principles like the golden rule, of humanity as fallen, lost, a wounded creature. Themes of redemption and ultimate restoration.

The excesses beauty, complexity, and richness, far more than ever need be.
that near universal inclination that there’s something more to all this, that life is more than the sum of it’s parts. The universal sense that there something spiritual, transcendent, sacred about it all. Matter having the properties when arranged in certain configuration to produce conscious, self-aware being, with such inclinations. The human desire for truth, and goodness. That our ultimate desire is not merely to survive this life, but find something to live for, a sense of a goal, purpose, that is to be obtained, The human inclination to see morality, as matter of obligations and duties.

The human tendency to structure our lives as a part of a narrative, often structured religiously. The convergence of religious themes, the similarities that develop in narratives they see themselves as a part, those repeated themes and elements, like sacrifices, saviors, messiahs, moral convergence on principles like the golden rule, of humanity as fallen, lost, a wounded creature. Themes of redemption and ultimate restoration.

The excesses beauty, complexity, and richness, far more than ever need be.

This is not an exhaustive list, just a few things off the top of my head, that lead me to not see it all meaningless noise, but there’s there’s something to it, a created ordered.

And this is without mentioning anything particularly christian, or that one thing that illuminates the Gospel, that always seems quite difficult to express or articulate for some reason or the other. A foundational thing, what one would give his entire life to possess, when seen is acknowledged as the source of everything else.

“At the deep bottom of the mine where the gold is at there aint none of that. There's just the pure ore. That forever thing. That you dont think is there. …..That thing that makes it possible to ladle out benedictions upon the heads of strangers instead of curses. It's all the same thing. And it aint but one thing. Just one.”

"The human desire for meaning and purpose"- This is why we are part of a created order?? Our desire to have meaning and purpose necessitates a creator?

All humans feel they have purpose, that's how humans are put together. The moment we lose all purpose, is the moment we lay down and die.
We always think of something to do and go do it, we are too curious to just sit around and do nothing.
But that's us, has nothing to do with the universe nor does it necessitate a creator


The excesses beauty, complexity, and richness, far more than ever need be. - There is beauty (not excessive) and a lot of excessive ugliness too (which you conveniently gloss over)

The human tendency to structure our lives as a part of a narrative, often structured religiously. The convergence of religious themes, the similarities that develop in narratives they see themselves as a part, those repeated themes and elements, like sacrifices, saviors, messiahs, moral convergence on principles like the golden rule, of humanity as fallen, lost, a wounded creature. Themes of redemption and ultimate restoration. - Reading this, I feel that you're essentially saying "Humans created a God because we view ourselves as people who need to be redeemed"

I may have grabbed the wrong end of the stick.
But I eagerly await your reply

Oh no. He's here - God
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18-01-2017, 06:27 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(18-01-2017 05:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Again faith is not trust based on evidence. Pretty much no definition requires that it be based on evidence. It's defined as a " complete trust or confidence in someone or something." regardless of if its based on evidence, past experience or not.
Now you are conflating your conflations. Religious faith is not based on evidence, as you say. You do not have to convince me of that; it has been my position all along.

Trust generically -- if it is legitimate and justified -- IS based on evidence. Of course one CAN have trust that is ill-advised or mistaken in that it is not evidence-based. But the basic concept is void and meaningless without a sound basis. Trust without evidence has other names: naiveté, gullibility, credulousness.
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