Why should a deity exist?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
21-01-2017, 02:00 PM (This post was last modified: 21-01-2017 03:29 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(21-01-2017 09:40 AM)JHaysPE Wrote:  But to what do we point our gratitude for existence? The "incredible dumb and blind luck", which has resulted in this existence.

Nope. It was not "incredible dumb blind luck". Obviously you know nothing of Choas Theory, Probability, or how Evolution actually works. But thanks for demonstrating your ignorance of almost every relevant subject.

Quote:If so, what else might we be thankful to "incredible dumb and blind luck"? That the order of society seems to be thriving within justice, peace and charity? As opposed to other properties or characteristics? Are we grateful to "incredible dumb and blind luck" for these?

We evolved systems to promote survival of the group(s). I see you also never took Anthropology 101, (or Biology 101). Rats and many other animals exhibit empathy.

Quote:So we then discover that "incredible dumb and blind luck" is too hard to type, so we simply shorten that title to "god".

You can't be serious.
Thanks for the vote for "incredible dumb and blind ignorance".
Facepalm

Very highly (single) unlikely events happen all the time.
The universe has been proven to be "non-intuitive". What appears to human brains, which evolved to make sense of a very specific environment, is not how Reality works.
Your implied arguments are all bogus.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-01-2017, 02:25 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(21-01-2017 09:40 AM)JHaysPE Wrote:  But to what do we point our gratitude for existence?

Why would I be grateful for my existence? Gratitude implies intent and purpose when neither are demonstrated. I can enjoy a walk on the beach without showing gratitude to the rivers and waves for washing the sand.

It would also imply that I should direct my hostility to god if my existence is filled with suffering. This is going to leave you in a theologically sticky situation.

Quote:So we then discover that "incredible dumb and blind luck" is too hard to type, so we simply shorten that title to "god".

You're implying that god is no more than a statistical blip?

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Paleophyte's post
21-01-2017, 03:00 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(10-01-2017 02:33 PM)Cypher44 Wrote:  So.. after my last posts, and the users on this site making it clear, I'm just repeating stuff. I got a good question from a couple of users on this site.

Why does there need to be an deity??
Good question.
The answer :

He may not exist at all but His apparent existence is a sort of comfort for believers
on points such as suffering, the idea of reward for it, the deity also provides a convenient and easy explanation for those hard to explain things i.e.

"Why do I suffer"
It's God, man he's testing you

Like the above, its human nature to try and find answers even if there aren't any.

So in short, there needs to be a deity because His existence helps the vast majority of people just cope with day to day life (I guess) and some people can't accept that the world may JUST HAVE EXISTED, they need a cause and for them, that cause is God..

Be nice in the comments Wink

I disagree with everything you said and it's just poorly said in the common English words. There doesn't have to be a Deity at all, to make one feel comfortable about themselves.. You also say "also provides a convenient and easy explanation for those hard to explain things". The sentence right there is just the ending to a book. Never knowing how it came to be. Why it came to be. Simple answers to things humans don't have the answer too. You see, it's kinda like Science and Religion. Science shows facts and results whereas Religion shows faith and comfort. It's also like the Truth and the Lie. People would rather, -subconsciously possibly, 90 % mostly-, hear the Lie because it makes them "feel" better whereas the Truth can potentially "shatter" their views on life or something like that so really, having your faith and beliefs in a deity that isn't real, is just mockery for your ill-minded brain of yours. It also shows the limit on how far you really are willing to go. Believing is only a step or two. I'll challenge that and walk miles and miles.

The existence of a Deity falsely helps people get over things and makes them born again Christians and new men and new woman and blah blah etc.

You say "So in short, there needs to be a deity because His existence helps the vast majority of people just cope with day to day life (I guess) and some people can't accept that the world may JUST HAVE EXISTED, they need a cause and for them, that cause is God..".. I put it like this. Get rid of your rock and throw your Bible in the trash and burn it. It's just a book anyways. Does you no good, even though you may feel like you've been "touched". You haven't been "touched".. You were only triggered by an emotional response, blah blah, etc... Once you get rid of your idealistic views or beliefs in a God, then your vision will be clearer. Until then, you'll be an easy candidate to sway and take advantage of.

"..Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live..."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-01-2017, 03:34 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
Quote:He may not exist at all but His apparent existence is a sort of comfort for believers
on points such as suffering, the idea of reward for it, the deity also provides a convenient and easy explanation for those hard to explain things i.e.

"Why do I suffer"
It's God, man he's testing you

Like the above, its human nature to try and find answers even if there aren't any.

So in short, there needs to be a deity because His existence helps the vast majority of people just cope with day to day life (I guess) and some people can't accept that the world may JUST HAVE EXISTED, they need a cause and for them, that cause is God..

Classic. Just really classic.
The ends justify the means.
Utilitarianism.
Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-01-2017, 11:59 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
Quote:That is a gross oversimplification. Gravity is just one factor of many.
Agreed. It wasn't my intention to list every single mechanism that might result in the evolution of a rational mind. My intention was to offer that the rational minds that do exist would arguably not exist in a universe where gravity behaves differently than it does in ours.

Quote:That question doesn't actually make any sense. Consider
Does it not make sense because no rational mind is grateful for existence? Or does it not make sense because no rational mind should be grateful for existence? Or does it not make sense for some other reason?

Quote:You just reversed the good sense you appeared to have in the preceding paragraph. You, in fact, contradicted yourself.
If there is a rational mind that has been grateful for existence, then "incredible dumb blind luck" would be the object of that gratitude, if that is presupposed as the reason for the existence, absent proof or demonstration of some other cause. Holding "incredible dumb and blind luck" as the reason for existence is a statement of faith - a belief for which no proof can be offered. It is descriptive simply of the long odds of all the things that would have to happen for the evolution, mutation, selection and development of a rational mind from the raw ingredients of the "big bang" or whatever other origin is attributed as causative.

Quote:No, we don't. And we don't use that phrase.

We are a product of the universe as it was and is - there is no luck involved.
To say that there is pre-supposes that we are meant to be, that we are special.
We're not. Get over it.
The concept of "incredible dumb and blind luck" follows from the idea that for every interaction of every mechanism between the big bang or whatever origin is supposed, up to the mutation that resulted in the rational mind, the outcomes - if random, and not acting out in some influence or other causitive agent - represent the sum of all this multitude of interactions, causes and effects, occurrig in the manner that in fact produced a rational mind.

It then follows that - as the rational mind is capable of "gratitude", and that gratitude is an expression of thankfulness with the intent of returning the "kindness" - there would be a need for an object of that gratitude. One can be grateful to parents, for example, for existence, and to grandparents for parents existence. If this regression is traced back to the big bang, what is the causative agent for which gratitude is offered?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-01-2017, 12:18 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(21-01-2017 01:07 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I think you have that backwards as well. Existence is not dependent on gravity, gravity is a property of the universe that we are in.
Your statement doesn't follow logic. Gravity is a property of the universe and would be so without the rational mind to observe it and develop predictive models based on it. One of the properties of gravity is that is holds an atmosphere containing oxygen down on a planet like earth.

Without gravity, there would be no atmosphere on earth. And rational minds required oxygen to mutate, evolve and develop.

Ergo - gravity is a cause of the rational mind.

(21-01-2017 01:07 PM)unfogged Wrote:  The evidence we have leads to the conclusion that minds evolved naturally. If gravity was missing or different then things would have evolved differently so, in that sense, it played a part but it is a gigantic stretch to say that minds are a product of gravity.
How so? I believe that I just made that connection. You have supplied the additional idea to that assertion that "If gravity was missing or different then things would have evolved differently". Agreed. And the odds of both of us being here in this moment, possessing a rational mind and a computer to access the internet in that universe without gravity - are simply to astronomical to calculate. Suffice it to say then that gravity, in a part, is a reason why we exist here together in this existence at this moment.

(21-01-2017 01:07 PM)unfogged Wrote:  No, existence as we know it has led to those things. You have the cart squarely before the horse.
So the existence of gravity is dependent upon the rational mind to describe gravity? This is easily refuted - astronomy demonstrates that gravity existed before hi mans did. Light from observations of distant stars and galaxies allows us to observe that these systems behave according to gravitational laws, but that we are observing them from light that took billions of years to get to us.

Science itself rebuts you here. No faith required.

(21-01-2017 01:07 PM)unfogged Wrote:  There's no good evidence that there is anything intentionally responsible so there's nothing to thank. I don't understand why you think there must be.
I don't think there must be. I simply observe that "gratitude" is an expression of the rational mind, and observed the lack of an object to which to express this gratitude - other than "incredible dumb and blind luck"

(21-01-2017 01:07 PM)unfogged Wrote:  We can be happy that things happened the way they did but if there is nothing to thank then there is nothing to thank. It's really not more complicated than that.
Does it follow from what you say here that "gratitude" is only reserved as an expression for concrete things to which the intent to return kindness may be observed? Or proven?


(21-01-2017 01:07 PM)unfogged Wrote:  When and were there is justice, peace, and charity I thank the people that made those things true. I see no reason to believe it was imposed from outside, especially considering that so often there is injustice, war, and selfishness.
I included this in my post to provoke. My intent is to establish an "order" or "direction" of societal behavior that suggests that peace, justice and charity in societies tend to lead to a thriving society, where as chaos, injustice and selfishness tend to lead to anti-thriving society.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-01-2017, 12:26 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(21-01-2017 02:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Nope. It was not "incredible dumb blind luck". Obviously you know nothing of Choas Theory, Probability, or how Evolution actually works. But thanks for demonstrating your ignorance of almost every relevant subject.

We evolved systems to promote survival of the group(s). I see you also never took Anthropology 101, (or Biology 101). Rats and many other animals exhibit empathy.

You can't be serious.
Thanks for the vote for "incredible dumb and blind ignorance".
Facepalm

Very highly (single) unlikely events happen all the time.
The universe has been proven to be "non-intuitive". What appears to human brains, which evolved to make sense of a very specific environment, is not how Reality works.
Your implied arguments are all bogus.
I find your reply to be chock full of blind assertions and loaded statements.
Doubt that we'll be engaging much here, but consider the following:
• You have a rational mind
• That rational mind did not exist 5 billion years ago, as we know rational minds to exist here on earth.
• An incredibly complex chain of events occurred for your rational mind to exist when it did not exist 5 billion years ago.
• There are causes for things to exist.

Refute one of the above assertions.

If not:
• What is the cause leading to your rational mind's existence?

"I don't know/don't care" is an acceptable answer, as we understand rational minds to operate.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes JHaysPE's post
22-01-2017, 01:05 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(22-01-2017 11:59 AM)JHaysPE Wrote:  One can be grateful to parents, for example, for existence, and to grandparents for parents existence. If this regression is traced back to the big bang, what is the causative agent for which gratitude is offered?

Well, as there almost certainly were not sentient minds capable of gratitude until literally billions of years after the big bang, I find your question to be nonsensical.

I believe that gratitude is an abstract function of sentience and higher brain function in self-aware individuals, and that it was originally tied in to evolved behaviours such as nurturing.

I'm sorry, but your beliefs are much too silly to take seriously. Got anything else we can discuss?
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Astreja's post
22-01-2017, 01:16 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(22-01-2017 01:05 PM)Astreja Wrote:  Well, as there almost certainly were not sentient minds capable of gratitude until literally billions of years after the big bang, I find your question to be nonsensical.

I believe that gratitude is an abstract function of sentience and higher brain function in self-aware individuals, and that it was originally tied in to evolved behaviours such as nurturing.
If a rational mind is grateful for existence, which includes the existence of the mechanism generating evolved behavio(u)rs such as nuturing, to what cause is that gratitude pointed?

In my opinion, you haven't resolved anything, but rather simply moved the goalposts from something like "Father and Mother" to something like "evolved behaviours such as nuturing". The outcome remains, as we are both still here with our rational minds. The cause remains unresolved.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-01-2017, 02:38 PM (This post was last modified: 24-01-2017 07:06 AM by unfogged.)
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(22-01-2017 12:18 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  Ergo - gravity is a cause of the rational mind.

No. Gravity is a not a cause, it is a parameter that influenced the way we evolved. Calling it a "cause" is a really strange way of looking at it. A cause sets things in motion.

Quote:Suffice it to say then that gravity, in a part, is a reason why we exist here together in this existence at this moment.

OK.... so what? There are innumerable factors that, had they been different, would have meant I would not have existed. In that case there would be no "I" so "I" would not have been affected.

Quote:So the existence of gravity is dependent upon the rational mind to describe gravity?

That is not at all what I said; you claimed that things like gravity and planetary motions have led to existence and that simply makes no sense.... unless by "existence" you mean specific people and things that exist now. If that's what you mean that you are not being at all clear in what you post. Existence is reality. Gravity is a part of that but gravity didn't cause it. It did affect what forms developed within existence but that's a very different discussion.


Quote:I don't think there must be. I simply observe that "gratitude" is an expression of the rational mind, and observed the lack of an object to which to express this gratitude - other than "incredible dumb and blind luck"

OK... so you didn't actually have a point other than the obvious one that we can be happy things turned out the way they did without identifying a causal agent. As I said before, I feel no need to have something to thank just becaue I'm thankful.

Quote:
(21-01-2017 01:07 PM)unfogged Wrote:  We can be happy that things happened the way they did but if there is nothing to thank then there is nothing to thank. It's really not more complicated than that.
Does it follow from what you say here that "gratitude" is only reserved as an expression for concrete things to which the intent to return kindness may be observed? Or proven?

Not sure how to make it any clearer... I can be grateful that things turned out the way they did without needing to identify an agent. If an agent is identified then I can express my gratitude to that agent.

There is a difference in gratitude between "person X did something nice for me" and "things worked out in a way I like". The same words are used to express both feelings but in the first case a debt is set up while in the second there is no debt. The emotion is similar but the response to it differs.

Quote:I included this in my post to provoke.

Yeah, I'm definitely getting the impression that you prefer trolling to honest discussion.

Quote:My intent is to establish an "order" or "direction" of societal behavior that suggests that peace, justice and charity in societies tend to lead to a thriving society, where as chaos, injustice and selfishness tend to lead to anti-thriving society.

Is anybody arguing against that? If you are suggesting that a god is needed to focus gratitude then I'd say it goes against the goal you just outlined. I prefer giving credit where it is actually due.

Edited to fix quoting

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like unfogged's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: