Why should a deity exist?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
22-01-2017, 05:29 PM (This post was last modified: 22-01-2017 05:38 PM by Peebothuhul.)
RE: Why should a deity exist?
Hello! Big Grin

(22-01-2017 11:59 AM)JHaysPE Wrote:  The concept of "incredible dumb and blind luck" follows from the idea that for every interaction of every mechanism between the big bang or whatever origin is supposed, up to the mutation that resulted in the rational mind, the outcomes - if random, and not acting out in some influence or other causative agent - represent the sum of all this multitude of interactions, causes and effects, occurrig in the manner that in fact produced a rational mind.

It then follows that - as the rational mind is capable of "gratitude", and that gratitude is an expression of thankfulness with the intent of returning the "kindness" - there would be a need for an object of that gratitude. One can be grateful to parents, for example, for existence, and to grandparents for parents existence. If this regression is traced back to the big bang, what is the causative agent for which gratitude is offered?

So... this 'Causative agent'?

What's it been doing for the past few billion upon billion years since it supposedly started everything?

You statement above makes it seems you're saying that said agent started everything off... and then sat back for 'X' billion years and watched.

Consider

(22-01-2017 12:26 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  
(21-01-2017 02:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Very highly (single) unlikely events happen all the time.

I find your reply to be chock full of blind assertions and loaded statements.
Doubt that we'll be engaging much here, but consider the following:
• You have a rational mind
• That rational mind did not exist 5 billion years ago, as we know rational minds to exist here on earth.
• An incredibly complex chain of events occurred for your rational mind to exist when it did not exist 5 billion years ago.
• There are causes for things to exist.

Refute one of the above assertions.

If not:
• What is the cause leading to your rational mind's existence?

"I don't know/don't care" is an acceptable answer, as we understand rational minds to operate.

(22-01-2017 12:26 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  • You have a rational mind

Well... I have a mind... not sure about its 'rationality' though. Tongue

(22-01-2017 12:26 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  • That rational mind did not exist 5 billion years ago, as we know rational minds to exist here on earth.

My mind did not exist half a century ago and NO minds existed (As far as we are aware, it's a big universe and we've not had a good look at every thing yet) 5 billion years ago.

(22-01-2017 12:26 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  • An incredibly complex chain of events occurred for your rational mind to exist when it did not exist 5 billion years ago.

No. A long chain of multiple series of semi random events happened OVER 5 billion years and our mind(s) are just one example of MANY minds evolved over that time. That our minds are the way they are as opposed to some other animals is part of said chance. Unless you think your dog or cat are morons? Consider

(22-01-2017 12:26 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  • There are causes for things to exist.

Indeed there are . We know the process that create volcanoes. Humans are completely incapable of creating volcanoes. Should we then give thanks to Pele, the Volcano goddess since she's obviously so much more powerful than humanity? Consider

Though, your last comment seems to leaves out any glimmer of 'Ration' and 'Mind' in its statement.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Peebothuhul's post
22-01-2017, 05:40 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(22-01-2017 01:16 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  If a rational mind is grateful for existence, which includes the existence of the mechanism generating evolved behavio(u)rs such as nuturing, to what cause is that gratitude pointed?

The pursuit of comfort and pleasure, as experienced by the reward system in the brain.

Quote:In my opinion, you haven't resolved anything, but rather simply moved the goalposts from something like "Father and Mother" to something like "evolved behaviours such as nuturing". The outcome remains, as we are both still here with our rational minds. The cause remains unresolved.

Let Me guess: *You* want to move the cause all the way to some hypothetical undetectable eternally-existing super-powered sentient agent who hates foreskins and shrimp but thinks substitutionary atonement is the sine qua non of morality. No

I'm sorry, but your beliefs are much too silly to take seriously. Got anything else we can discuss?
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Astreja's post
22-01-2017, 08:31 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(22-01-2017 12:18 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  [...] Without gravity, there would be no atmosphere on earth. And rational minds required oxygen to mutate, evolve and develop.

Ergo - gravity is a cause of the rational mind.

Um... are you being serious here? Sadcryface I can only hope not. This is a classic non causa pro causa fallacy.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like SYZ's post
23-01-2017, 11:46 AM (This post was last modified: 23-01-2017 11:51 AM by JHaysPE.)
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(22-01-2017 08:31 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(22-01-2017 12:18 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  [...] Without gravity, there would be no atmosphere on earth. And rational minds required oxygen to mutate, evolve and develop.

Ergo - gravity is a cause of the rational mind.

Um... are you being serious here? Sadcryface I can only hope not. This is a classic non causa pro causa fallacy.
If I change the word "cause" to "influence" , does that material change the assertion ---> That the odds are that your rational mind and my rational mind would not exist, absent the influence of gravity as we know it within our existence? That perhaps some other form of rational mind might exist, but not your mind and my mind?

Would it then follow that no rational minds, as we no rational minds to be here on earth, would exist in an existence that has a behavior of gravity that is different than the behavior of gravity as we know gravity to behave in our existence?

I note that if I have to parse every assertion for you, each post is going to be like the Encyclopedia Britannica. I'm here for the very reason of having participants raise the logical issues, as you have. However, I beg some latitude if the material assertion is not changed by the tweaking of a word or two here or there.

I challenge your identification of a non causa pro causa fallacy here. Gravity causes a number of effects. To the extent that these gravitational effects have led to the evolution of a rational mind, then cause is attributed to these effects, whose cause is, in fact, gravity that behaves as our gravity behaves.

These effects would include securing a breathable atmosphere to the surface of a planet, and the orbit of planets at a distance form a star in order to assure a temperature and atmospheric pressure range suitable for the evolution of life to create a rational mind.

Cause and effect.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-01-2017, 12:01 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(22-01-2017 05:40 PM)Astreja Wrote:  The pursuit of comfort and pleasure, as experienced by the reward system in the brain.

Let Me guess: *You* want to move the cause all the way to some hypothetical undetectable eternally-existing super-powered sentient agent who hates foreskins and shrimp but thinks substitutionary atonement is the sine qua non of morality. No
You have simply identified a different branch of a regression that will lead to the same origin. If the reward system of the brain is the source of pleasure and comfort, then what caused the evolution of the reward system within the brain?

No, I want to move the causes all the way back to an agreed point. Perhaps its a theoretical singularity, like the Big Bang. And if matter and energy existed before the Bi Bang, then let's move it back even further.

The rest of your comment is simply hop-scotching the possibilities of where might be going with this. You're getting way ahead of it. I'd like a discussion as to the terminus of the infinite regression of cause, or the acceptability of the infinite regression. Perhaps you can point me to a thread where this has been or is being discussed.

I'd also like to put on the table the idea of "Incredible Dumb Blind Luck" as a formal cause. Luck would be enjoying the good fortune of an event with a high percentage of unlikelihood. Dumb and Blind refers to the nature that this good fortune has no agent or cause, other than the cascade or purely random events. Evolutionary forces such as natural selection would violate this "Dumb and Blind" in that the random mutations of organisms which better suited those organisms for survival would tend to be expressed and promulgated, not in a purely random fashion, but by the influence of the environment in which they found themselves.

That's where I am headed at this point.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-01-2017, 12:16 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(23-01-2017 12:01 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  I'd also like to put on the table the idea of "Incredible Dumb Blind Luck" as a formal cause.

Well, that excludes the natural universe, then. The probability of our existence is now 1.0, and natural selection is not particularly random or lucky -- It is clearly the result of specific environmental pressures, not just a crapshoot. Matter itself is inherently structured by virtue of atomic valence, with the relative balance of elements in the environment determining what molecules get formed. "Incredible Dumb Blind Luck" is a strawman.

I reiterate my earlier point that gratitude requires sentience, which is evolved and dependent on a certain complexity of brain function. We simply need not go any further back than that.

I'm sorry, but your beliefs are much too silly to take seriously. Got anything else we can discuss?
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Astreja's post
23-01-2017, 12:23 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(21-01-2017 09:40 AM)JHaysPE Wrote:  
(10-01-2017 02:33 PM)Cypher44 Wrote:  So.. after my last posts, and the users on this site making it clear, I'm just repeating stuff. I got a good question from a couple of users on this site.

Why does there need to be an deity??
Good question.
The answer :

He may not exist at all but His apparent existence is a sort of comfort for believers
on points such as suffering, the idea of reward for it, the deity also provides a convenient and easy explanation for those hard to explain things i.e.

"Why do I suffer"
It's God, man he's testing you

Like the above, its human nature to try and find answers even if there aren't any.

So in short, there needs to be a deity because His existence helps the vast majority of people just cope with day to day life (I guess) and some people can't accept that the world may JUST HAVE EXISTED, they need a cause and for them, that cause is God..

Be nice in the comments Wink
One reason would be an object of gratitude. Existence as we know it wouldn't exist without gravity, and its behavior according to the laws of physics that appear to describe it.

It would then follow that the rational mind is a product of gravity. Every evolutionary mechanism, inter-planetary interaction, etc. of the operation of existence, as it currently operates, has lead to existence as we now know it, and of which rational minds are a part.

But to what do we point our gratitude for existence? The "incredible dumb and blind luck", which has resulted in this existence. If so, what else might we be thankful to "incredible dumb and blind luck"? That the order of society seems to be thriving within justice, peace and charity? As opposed to other properties or characteristics? Are we grateful to "incredible dumb and blind luck" for these?

So we then discover that "incredible dumb and blind luck" is too hard to type, so we simply shorten that title to "god".

Hi JHays,
Everyone is thankful and there is a lot to be thankful for, e.g. your job, your kids etc. However directing this back to the original question it does not necessitate a God's existence

Oh no. He's here - God
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-01-2017, 01:28 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(23-01-2017 12:01 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  No, I want to move the causes all the way back to an agreed point. Perhaps its a theoretical singularity, like the Big Bang. And if matter and energy existed before the Bi Bang, then let's move it back even further.

What you seem to be describing is deism. You're at the point of a non-falsifiable argument, which is logically irrational.

Even if you were to prove the existence of a divine superintelligence at the root of it all - and if you were, in the thousands of years of trying, you'd be the first - you still haven't gone anywhere to support your thesis (if this is your thesis) that this divine superintelligence is interested in human affairs, answers prayers, etc etc.

Lots of highly intelligent and rational people were deists, by the way: Einstein, Jefferson, Franklin, Lincoln just to name a few.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Heath_Tierney's post
23-01-2017, 02:46 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(23-01-2017 11:46 AM)JHaysPE Wrote:  If I change the word "cause" to "influence" , does that material change the assertion ---> That the odds are that your rational mind and my rational mind would not exist, absent the influence of gravity as we know it within our existence? That perhaps some other form of rational mind might exist, but not your mind and my mind?

Yes, it does change it. It changes it from something that was very unclear to something that at least can be parsed.

Quote:Would it then follow that no rational minds, as we no rational minds to be here on earth, would exist in an existence that has a behavior of gravity that is different than the behavior of gravity as we know gravity to behave in our existence?

Possibly; it depends on how closely you want them to be be like ours. If they were completely different in physical structure and operation but still recognized the same laws of logic then are they like ours or not?

Quote:I note that if I have to parse every assertion for you, each post is going to be like the Encyclopedia Britannica.

Perhaps if you just used words that indicated your meaning clearly instead of substituting really odd choices.

Quote:I'm here for the very reason of having participants raise the logical issues, as you have. However, I beg some latitude if the material assertion is not changed by the tweaking of a word or two here or there.

It does when people don't understand what you mean.

Quote:I challenge your identification of a non causa pro causa fallacy here. Gravity causes a number of effects. To the extent that these gravitational effects have led to the evolution of a rational mind, then cause is attributed to these effects, whose cause is, in fact, gravity that behaves as our gravity behaves.

These effects would include securing a breathable atmosphere to the surface of a planet, and the orbit of planets at a distance form a star in order to assure a temperature and atmospheric pressure range suitable for the evolution of life to create a rational mind.

Cause and effect.

Again, gravity does not CAUSE rational minds to develop. It affects the way they develop but your use of "cause" is just.... weird. Its like looking at a piece of paper being blown in the wind and saying that the wind caused the paper because it would not be where it is otherwise. It's true that the wind can be identified as the cause of specific movements and a factor in where the paper ended up but it did not cause the paper.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like unfogged's post
23-01-2017, 04:26 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(23-01-2017 11:46 AM)JHaysPE Wrote:  
(22-01-2017 08:31 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Um... are you being serious here? Sadcryface I can only hope not. This is a classic non causa pro causa fallacy.

If I change the word "cause" to "influence" , does that material change the assertion ---> That the odds are that your rational mind and my rational mind would not exist, absent the influence of gravity as we know it within our existence?

No. You don't get a second bite of the cherry to tidy up your assertion when it's shown to be deficient. Cause and effect are two subtly differing terms.

Quote:Would it then follow that no rational minds, as we no rational minds to be here on earth, would exist in an existence that has a behavior of gravity that is different than the behavior of gravity as we know gravity to behave in our existence?

I'm sorry, but I can't comprehend this statement.

Quote:I note that if I have to parse every assertion for you, each post is going to be like the Encyclopedia Britannica.

Please don't patronise me. And look at your own gobbledygook "comment" above this LOL.

Quote:Gravity causes a number of effects. To the extent that these gravitational effects have led to the evolution of a rational mind [...]

I'll need a citation for this claim. It's not something I've ever heard of before.

Quote:These effects would include securing a breathable atmosphere to the surface of a planet, and the orbit of planets at a distance form a star in order to assure a temperature and atmospheric pressure range suitable for the evolution of life to create a rational mind.

So you're saying, for example, that an amoeba has a "rational" brain because it lives in a suitably supporting atmosphere, and at a specific distance from some star—both due to gravity? Uh... whatever LOL.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: