Why should a deity exist?
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27-01-2017, 09:21 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(27-01-2017 08:23 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Edit: JHaysPE ? You've mussed up a [ quote ] some where in your reply. Is why it's coming up blank that way. A little edit should fix it. Thumbsup
Lol...thanks...I got it fixed and "N/T" the boo-boos - mod can delete those.

Were you catechized as an adult ion the Catholic Church, or did you do the juvenile bit growing up?

Even as an atheist, RCIA (the adult catechesis) is interesting, because it is different discussing Catholic faith as an adult, with other adults. I emphasize "different" here (not "better" or "more meaningful")

I'm not here to convert atheists. My pursuit is more noble - to make atheists better atheists by criticizing the fallacies erected about faith by atheists when discussing the substantiation of atheism, or the lack thereof regarding religious faith.
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27-01-2017, 09:47 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(27-01-2017 08:27 AM)JHaysPE Wrote:  is it reasonable to assume that there are reasoning capabilities of humans that are superior to the reasoning capabilities of non-humans. Would it also be fair to say that the reasoning capacity required to exercise discipline, or strive for justice, or to exist in peace, might involve reasoning capacities beyond the capabilities of non-humans?

No it isn't. Primate families (apes) have evolved all sorts of strategies to make sure the group survives, and "keep peace" in the family.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-01-2017, 09:49 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
At work.

Yah. .. mother converted late in her life average early in mine.

Did the whole 'Baptize' thing when I was... 5? 8? It's been a while. Blush

'Confirmed' in high - school years.

As for my 'Faith'..... hmmmmm, where to start. Consider

Okay, about 'Belief' that's been bandied about?

To quote, "I can believe a thousand impossible things before breakfast."


Which is to say I can entertain many ideas/concepts/beliefs about the 'World' and 'Things' but said thoughts don't have to (And in a lit of cases don't. Blush ) comport to reality.

So..... where abouts in regards to reality is your deity?

Sorry for being breif/short. Time is limited.

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27-01-2017, 09:49 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(27-01-2017 09:21 AM)JHaysPE Wrote:  I'm not here to convert atheists. My pursuit is more noble - to make atheists better atheists by criticizing the fallacies erected about faith by atheists when discussing the substantiation of atheism, or the lack thereof regarding religious faith.

How noble. Weeping
Maybe you ought to start by learning something about your own cult.

You've already disqualified yourself with your ignorant deity/non-deity (faith) coin.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-01-2017, 01:01 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(26-01-2017 07:13 AM)JHaysPE Wrote:  
(25-01-2017 02:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  You continue to conflate two different meanings of 'faith' and this renders your thesis incoherent.
And you continue to deny that these two "versions" of "faith" are exercising the same capacity.

Yes, because they aren't. No one here agrees that they are the same.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-01-2017, 01:04 PM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2017 01:15 PM by unfogged.)
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(27-01-2017 09:16 AM)JHaysPE Wrote:  I wasn't clear here. I am suggesting, for example, that an anthropologic technique for discerning a possible "tool" from a "rock" is by identifying a "rock that doesn't belong" - a piece of obsidian, where there is no other obvious source of obsidian in the locale - which might suggest a tool that was carried by a nomadic ancient people, for example.

Nowhere in anything you've said has there been anything about distinguishing a rock that "belongs" from one that doesn't. You don't seem to be able to present anything in a coherent manner or stick to a point.

Quote: am going to philosophically tie "purpose" to "design", and "design" to "intelligent input", then I am going to divorce "intelligence" from having to come from a human brain, but rather being something more like gravity, which simply "is", with the human brain having evolved to recognize it and harness it, rather than being its source.

Good luck with that. Design only requires intelligent input if you limit the use to things that are intentionally designed. Intelligence is the product of a brain and we have exactly zero examples of intelligence that are not tied to a physical brain. There is simply no reason to believe that it is anything other than the product of a brain.

Quote:And then I am going to reveal that by simple definition, the source for the immutable "gravity" and the source for this immutable 'intelligence" - is in fact - "God" (Ganesh, Allah, God of Abraham and The Almighty)

You can't define things into existence.

Quote:And then I am going to suggest a re-reading of holy scripts, substituting this "immutable collective" anytime you read "Lord" or "God" or "Allah", and see if that changes anything for you. When "God" smited an army, we're not talking about some angry gray-haired man reaching down from heaven and squashing soldiers. What is being said by these people 4,500 years ago is that the natural order of the direction of peace, justice, and function (opposed to dysfunction), worked against the "evil' army (where these values and practices were in privation) for the "good" army (where these values and practices existed) and served to defeat that "evil" foe, so that the privation of good would not be brought against the "good" nation as an enforced standard of practice.

Word salad and woo. There is no "natural order of peace, justice and function".

Quote:God is not a person - not physical. No more so than gravity is, or intelligence is. God is the collector for all those influences and forces that result in thrivement and fulfillment. The "need for a deity" then is simply to crate a term and a name for the source of these immutable influences and forces which have lead to the existence of all of us, and the existence of something like "fulfillment of purpose" within this thing we call "existence".

I see no no need to try to gather positive things under a single umbrella. I especially see no need to label that "god" since that word has so much baggage attached to it. Your whole argument is semantics and Chopra-eqsue woo.

Quote:So - either continue or criticize. I don't want to waste your time.

You already have.

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27-01-2017, 01:07 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(26-01-2017 02:05 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  As I said, it is a spectrum, with humans at the top (presumably) of that spectrum...

No, we're in third place. Dolphins are ahead of us, and white mice are at the top.

I have a book that says so. Yes

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27-01-2017, 01:21 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(27-01-2017 08:36 AM)JHaysPE Wrote:  I corrected the poster to instruct that this is not the prayer practice of the vast majority of faithful, and identified this as a composition fallacy, which it is.

I await the citations regarding how the vast majority of the faithful pray.

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27-01-2017, 01:29 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
Quote:but rather being something more like gravity, which simply "is"

Gravity is one of the properties (as far as we know right now) of THIS universe.
If a deity created "all that is", then gravity was one of those creatures, (unless the deity *found itself* as a part of a larger Reality already in place), in which case that deity is not the creator of Reality, and a pretty second rate deity. No creator needed : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

Quote:And then I am going to reveal that by simple definition, the source for the immutable "gravity" and the source for this immutable 'intelligence" - is in fact - "God" (Ganesh, Allah, God of Abraham and The Almighty)

Oooooooh. Do tell. Sparky the Magician is "going to reveal" something to us, (after his "noble purpose" is accomplished). Yawn. Every nut-case preacher who stumbles in the door here, thinks they have a "noble purpose". We get one a week, as we're on the nut-case-a-week plan. Gravity is not "immutable". There is no science text that says that. Gravity and spacetime are totally mutable in the vicinity of a singularity (black hole). But it sounds "all sciency", even though it's bullshit. Thumbsup

BTW, the origins of Allah (from the Arabic moon-god named *Sin*), prove he is not the "God of Abraham", (Yahweh, the Babylonian War god, and "god of the armies", the 70th son of El Elyon.) But then this guy knows next to nothing about religions, history, or even his own cult, so why would he know that ?

Quote:And then I am going to suggest a re-reading of holy scripts, substituting this "immutable collective" anytime you read "Lord" or "God" or "Allah", and see if that changes anything for you. When "God" smited an army, we're not talking about some angry gray-haired man reaching down from heaven and squashing soldiers. What is being said by these people 4,500 years ago

Because "immutable" beings can't *DO* anything, or they're not immutable, by DEFINITION. That's REALLY not a difficult one. Facepalm

The Bible (the Torah of Moses, anyway, Genesis->Numbers) was assembled by the Judean priests in Babylon during the "exilic" period, from a number of traditions. More like 2600 years ago, NOT 4500 years ago. But thanks for demonstrating yet another subject you are totally ignorant of. Deuteronomy happened to be "found" during a temple restoration and the king needed a law code that he could say came from a god.

So.
He never took Bible Studies 101, never took Comparative Mythology, never took World Religions, never took Roman Catholic Theology or Philosophy.
But here he is with his "noble purpose" about to reveal something to us about how to read scripture *his way*. I think he revealed more than he knew he was. Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-01-2017, 01:37 PM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2017 01:45 PM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(27-01-2017 01:21 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(27-01-2017 08:36 AM)JHaysPE Wrote:  I corrected the poster to instruct that this is not the prayer practice of the vast majority of faithful, and identified this as a composition fallacy, which it is.

I await the citations regarding how the vast majority of the faithful pray.

I have a pretty good idea what the most common prayer is, the standard child's bedtime prayer.

10 Popular bedtime prayers

Now I lay me down to sleep,
I pray the Lord my soul to keep.
If I should die before I wake,
I pray the Lord my soul to take.


It's asking for protection and then asking to be taken to heaven if that protection fails.

So his version of prayer that he thinks is the standard is BS. Drinking Beverage

<edit>
This is interesting:

What are the most common prayer requests submitted to the 700 Club?

The most common prayer requests submitted to the 700 Club are about salvation, financial hardship, medical ailments, family discord or overcoming challenges such as addiction, sexual problems, suicide and difficult emotions. The 700 Club accepts prayer requests through the Christian Broadcasting Network website


Yeah, people wanting stuff. Rolleyes

But hey, we might be on the same page if you're going to assert people making such requests won't get jack. Though I have a much more plausible explanation.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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