Why should a deity exist?
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27-01-2017, 05:56 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(27-01-2017 04:27 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  
(27-01-2017 01:04 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Nowhere in anything you've said has there been anything about distinguishing a rock that "belongs" from one that doesn't. You don't seem to be able to present anything in a coherent manner or stick to a point.
So what you seem to be saying is that I cannot introduce a new idea or concept into the discussion.

No, I'm saying that when you tell me that you weren't being clear and that what you really meant was something that is a completely new point you are being dishonest.

Quote:Do you disagree that a piece of man-shaped obsidian laying in an archaeological dig, where the nearest source for natural obsidian is miles away, wouldn't be the basis to describe that piece of obsidian possessing "purpose" as a tool, as opposed to some random piece of obsidian laying on the ground?

No, I don't disagree that that is a reasonable conjecture. What I object to is the fact that we were talking about picking up a handy rock and giving it a purpose versus picking up something designed for one purpose and using it for another. Neither has anything do do with being able to identify later that a particular rock was probably used for some purpose because it is out of place. If you want to introduce that as a new point don't dishonestly claim it as a clarification of what you already said.

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(27-01-2017 01:04 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Good luck with that. Design only requires intelligent input if you limit the use to things that are intentionally designed.
AGreed. I just see the fingerprint of intelligence on a lot of things where you appear to recognize "design", but attribute a random occurrence as the author of that design.

I'm glad you put "design" in quotes. Some things may have the appearance of design but when you look into how they formed there are natural processes that explain them quite well. No intent or intelligence is needed. Your "fingerprint of intelligence" is nothing more than a god-of-the-gaps argument in fancy dress.

Quote:My hypothesis is Intelligence is a "thing", a "force", like gravity. And like gravity, intelligence is recognized by the human mind. It's studied, and it can even be predicted and harnessed. But intelligence is not a product of the human mind. It simply 'is", like gravity simply "is". Our comprehension and our ability to harness it doesn't make us its source or its author.

We could test the hypothesis, and you are free to rebut the findings.

I'd say that barely qualifies as a conjecture because I don't see that you have a shred of evidence to support it. You can believe whatever you like but until you demonstrate a way to test it and show that "intelligence" exists independent of minds it is a worthless claim. I don't expect that you can even define what this "intelligence" is or how it interacts with minds.

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(27-01-2017 01:04 PM)unfogged Wrote:  You can't define things into existence.
How do people discuss a concept if that concept has no name? That's just awkward. You place me back to "incredibly fortunate dumb and blind luck", and its jut easier to type "God".

You said that "by simple definition, the source for the immutable "gravity" and the source for this immutable 'intelligence" - is in fact - "God"". "God" is the word for a concept that carries certain connotations and your attempt at defining some new concept with that same word is a huge barrier to effective communication. If you have a new concept, give it a new name. What you describe sounds vaguely pantheistic/panentheistic but it isn't at all clear just what you mean.

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(27-01-2017 01:04 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Word salad and woo. There is no "natural order of peace, justice and function".
Hypothesis - societies which have enjoyed peace, justice and order have been more productive and more successful at surviving than ones where these have not existed.

That doesn't make peace or justice "natural orders". It makes them preferred states to be worked towards.

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(27-01-2017 01:04 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I see no no need to try to gather positive things under a single umbrella. I especially see no need to label that "god" since that word has so much baggage attached to it. Your whole argument is semantics and Chopra-eqsue woo.
And yet you label as "atheist" and particpate in an atheist forum.

I have absolutely no clue what connection you see there.

Quote:I'll take the Chopra reference as a back-handed compliment, I guess.

I'm sure you will. It's not. You've got a lot of baseless conjecture and unsubstantiated claims and that's all.

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27-01-2017, 06:02 PM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2017 07:21 PM by unfogged.)
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(27-01-2017 04:10 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  My Deity is the sheer will of existence.

Facepalm

Quote:I observe some atheists seem to be stuck in a physical reality, which I believe might shut off an access to "transcendent" as a reality.

You've demonstrated clearly that you do not understand the difference between atheist, humanist, and skeptic. Atheists don't believe any god exists; some do believe in all sorts of other "transcendent" things. Atheists can be just as irrational as theists.

Skeptics believe what can be demonstrated to be true but are still free to conjecture and even dream. We just don't fall into the trap of buying our own bullshit.

Quote:It could be faulty observation on my part - I saw Penn Jillette saw Teller in half once.

I'd say you do a whole lot of hypothesizing after damn little observation.

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27-01-2017, 06:27 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(25-01-2017 02:19 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  My objective here, under the topic of "Why should a deity exist?" is to investigate and understand the informing of choices and inspiration of willed actions from people who do not exercise religious faith.

Fair enough question. I'd say in my case the innate preservation of (all) life, the advancement of society and preservation of its mores, and the inherent investigative nature of the human mind. Religion hasn't impinged on my life-decisions for well over fifty years. [That's all of course a drastically simplified response.]

(25-01-2017 02:19 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  I am following lines of questions, and responses, to come to an understanding of whether or not 'faith" (choosing or acting with less than the facts) is exercised, and if it is exercised, it is effective or not, and if effective, it so except when it comes to religious faith.

I can't be sure that the sun will rise tomorrow morning, but I have "faith" that it will. Nothing religious about that.

(25-01-2017 02:19 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  My position is that Deity/Not Deity is simply a statement of faith, no matter which is picked.

Nope. You continue to conflate theist faith with non-religious faith. They have no connection. Any assertions that suggest that science and religion share a certain epistemological status is erroneous. The scientific practices of observation, experimentation and replication; the development of falsifiable hypotheses and the uncompromising questioning of prior viewpoints—have proven uniquely powerful in revealing the amazing, underlying structure of the world we live in EG: The role of germs in the spread of disease, the neural basis of mental life, the mechanics of subatomic particles etc. Religion has no equivalent record of discovering any hidden truths.

There are many theist views that are not the product of rational ways of seeing the world. Regard for example the stories of Adam and Eve, or the virgin birth of Christ, or of Muhammad ascending to heaven on a winged horse. These aren't the product of innate biases. They're learned, and learned in a special way—they're acquired through the testimony of others, from religious authorities, or parents or peers. This requires a leap of "faith"—that one must trust the people who are testifying to their truth.

Sociologist and atheist Professor Alan Wolfe says that "evangelical believers are sometimes hard pressed to explain exactly what, doctrinally speaking, their faith is," and further notes that "these are people who believe, often passionately, in God, even if they cannot tell others all that much about the God in which they believe".

Say you unfortunately get a cancer diagnosis. Whose would you better trust; that from a priest or that from a radiologist? Why woulld you—without any thought—abandon all your "faith" in the priest's words, taken directly from your holy book of instruction, and instead shift your faith unequivocally to a scientist?

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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27-01-2017, 06:41 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(27-01-2017 06:27 PM)SYZ Wrote:  I can't be sure that the sun will rise tomorrow morning, but I have "faith" that it will. Nothing religious about that.
You don't believe without evidence that the sun will rise so, no, it's not religious faith.

You have a reasonable belief that it will rise based on past experience, history, and your knowledge of the relevant science. This could be called trust, which is basically the non-religious usage of the word "faith". But I pretty much refuse to use the word "faith" because theists are drawn to it like a moth to flame, and love to conflate its dictionary meanings, which are near polar opposites. I either say "reasonable belief" or "trust" when I mean that, or "religious faith" when I mean that.
(27-01-2017 06:27 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Nope. You continue to conflate theist faith with non-religious faith. They have no connection.
Case in point ;-)
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27-01-2017, 07:06 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(26-01-2017 06:35 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  These are clearly prayers for intercession by the magic man in the sky. Yes, it is acknowledging that God's Will is immutable, but specifically does ask for intercession [...]

Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: A multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer.

"Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG*, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications."

*Coronary artery bypass grafting.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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27-01-2017, 08:13 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(27-01-2017 07:06 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(26-01-2017 06:35 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  These are clearly prayers for intercession by the magic man in the sky. Yes, it is acknowledging that God's Will is immutable, but specifically does ask for intercession [...]

Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: A multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer.

"Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG*, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications."

*Coronary artery bypass grafting.

Well that's because God's Will is immutable, of course! Laugh out load

(Or because there's no there, there. Funny how similar any actual test results in the real world--outside of the realms of word games and "personal testimony"-- are to the simple proposition of "no deities exist".)

Well, I guess an argument could be made, based on the negative results when people knew they were being prayed for, that God gets really pissed off at Christians for presuming to pray for intervention, and decides to intervene in the opposite way they ask. He does have a bit of a reputation for being a dick to those who displease him. Consider

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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27-01-2017, 08:16 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(27-01-2017 08:13 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(27-01-2017 07:06 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: A multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer.

"Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG*, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications."

*Coronary artery bypass grafting.

Well that's because God's Will is immutable, of course! Laugh out load

(Or because there's no there, there. Funny how similar any actual test results in the real world--outside of the realms of word games and "personal testimony"-- are to the simple proposition of "no deities exist".)

Well, I guess an argument could be made, based on the negative results when people knew they were being prayed for, that God gets really pissed off at Christians for presuming to pray for intervention, and decides to intervene in the opposite way they ask. He does have a bit of a reputation for being a dick to those who displease him. Consider

He's immutable. He has to sit very very still.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-01-2017, 09:18 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(27-01-2017 04:10 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  I observe some atheists seem to be stuck in a physical reality, which I believe might shut off an access to "transcendent" as a reality.

I believe that all reality is physical -- including transcendent experiences, which I see as an interesting function generated by the brain. When it comes right down to it, we're no more stuck than believers.

I'm sorry, but your beliefs are much too silly to take seriously. Got anything else we can discuss?
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28-01-2017, 12:38 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
Hello again!

Finally, with some free time. Big Grin

(27-01-2017 04:10 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  My Deity is the sheer will of existence.

Um, sorry.. but what does this mean?

Perhaps try different words/sentence to get the message across?

I'm not grokking you. Consider

(27-01-2017 04:10 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  I observe some atheists seem to be stuck in a physical reality, which I believe might shut off an access to "transcendent" as a reality.

Oh, okay. So... how do you go about detecting "transcendent"?

Consider

(27-01-2017 04:10 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  It could be faulty observation on my part - I saw Penn Jillette saw Teller in half once.

Ooo! You're so lucky! Those two seem quite hilarious from watching Youtube. Big Grin

*Nods* Yah, the optical and other trick professional magician's play are all very clever.

You'll note that pretty much ALL Magician's are admitting they are doing nothing but tricks, right?
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28-01-2017, 07:39 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(27-01-2017 04:27 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  My hypothesis is Intelligence is a "thing", a "force", like gravity. And like gravity, intelligence is recognized by the human mind. It's studied, and it can even be predicted and harnessed. But intelligence is not a product of the human mind. It simply 'is", like gravity simply "is". Our comprehension and our ability to harness it doesn't make us its source or its author.

We could test the hypothesis, and you are free to rebut the findings.

I am honestly curious how you propose to test this.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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