Why should a deity exist?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
11-01-2017, 07:42 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(11-01-2017 07:19 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 06:09 AM)morondog Wrote:  A deity should exist because it'd be nice if it did? Rolleyes Oh man.

Anyway Christian God is not very nice, if we define existence of Gods by what we prefer then I prefer that he doesn't exist.

He seems like he's making efforts to reinterpret his religious knowledge into one of kindness and compassion, and he's just here expressing his ideas. It's not like he's trying to sell them to us. Whether I agree with his ideas or not, I think it's a step in the right direction that many Christians can afford to take.

Wait... maybe I'm reading this wrong. Cypher, are you here to convince us to believe what you believe, or just to share what you think?
I think he is preacher in disguise. His lack of reaction to posts in his thread seems to imply that he is interested in preaching his headcanon not discussion.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-01-2017, 07:44 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
People are raised by adults and when they reach adulthood they'd still like to pretend that they are kids. So they invent a celestial parent to pass blame onto as well as use as a convenient excuse for why life gets so hard sometimes. It certainly feels a void in the immature mind, even if it is only a placebo effect.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TheBeardedDude's post
11-01-2017, 08:32 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(11-01-2017 07:08 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  ... I find myself a part of existence, in which conscious self-aware creatures exist, creatures who seek meaning, and truth, and goodness, creatures with considerable moral and creative capacities, and sense that there's something more to all this, than the sum of its parts, who seek purpose, akin to characters in story, who are not entirely aware of it's meaning. Why should i not assume we're a part of a created order, based on this? Why should i see any of these things as a product of uncreated order?
You remind me of my late 2nd wife who had similar arguments for her belief in god (arguments, BTW, that I made no particular effort to disabuse her of, as she chose to cling to them for comfort during her long slow death). I have never been personally swayed by such arguments on the basis that if billions believe something or not, has no relevance to whether what they believe is true. Billions used to believe the earth is flat and bleeding is an effective remedy for disease; that didn't make it true, it made it popular. Those same people would have objected just like you, talking about how intuitive it is that the world is flat, how "everyone knows" bleeding helps. The real question here is why SHOULD you assume what you're assuming? If you can't substantiate it then no matter how much longstanding popularity the idea enjoys, no matter how intuitive it presently seems, it isn't worthy of affording belief to.
(11-01-2017 07:08 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What's interesting is that most atheists one runs across, don't attempt to provide you a conception of a godless world, as if they posses some more believable alternative, instead they appeal to you to a lack a belief, to be agnostic on the question that we're so intuitively inclined to hold.
There is no reason to provide a conception of a godless world. This world is exactly what I would expect to find if it were godless. It is, for example, full of random meaningless suffering, with no evidence of an external force pushing back. "Answered prayer" is indistinguishable from random happenstance. Etc. It is just a question of whether you are willing to see it for what it is or not. Nothing for me to gin up.
(11-01-2017 07:08 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  People like myself tend to believe in God, because the alternative seems a bit absurd, so much so that atheists prefer to lack a belief, than take it up.
Can you explain what you're saying here a bit better? It seems you are presenting atheism as a Third Way between taking up theism and not taking it up. Atheists are not empty of any beliefs, they simply don't hold unsubstantiated / unsubstantiatable beliefs. Because theism isn't substantiatable we do not afford belief to it. That does not mean we are empty of reasonable beliefs about what is likely to be true about the Great Questions.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes mordant's post
11-01-2017, 08:32 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(10-01-2017 03:19 PM)Cypher44 Wrote:  
(10-01-2017 03:07 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Why would an omniscient (which you said in
another thread) god need to test anything when he/she/it already knows everything? Consider


I think with humans, with an incredibly complex and difficult question. Most people just take the easiest answer they can find.. Without stopping to consider any contradictions like the one you pointed out. -C
Maybe so, but since you see the contradiction, how do you explain suffering? You seem to believe in Jesus and heaven from your other threads. Consider

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-01-2017, 09:11 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(11-01-2017 08:32 AM)mordant Wrote:  You remind me of my late 2nd wife who had similar arguments for her belief in god (arguments, BTW, that I made no particular effort to disabuse her of, as she chose to cling to them for comfort during her long slow death). I have never been personally swayed by such arguments on the basis that if billions believe something or not, has no relevance to whether what they believe is true. Billions used to believe the earth is flat and bleeding is an effective remedy for disease; that didn't make it true, it made it popular. Those same people would have objected just like you, talking about how intuitive it is that the world is flat, how "everyone knows" bleeding helps. The real question here is why SHOULD you assume what you're assuming? If you can't substantiate it then no matter how much longstanding popularity the idea enjoys, no matter how intuitive it presently seems, it isn't worthy of affording belief to.

I wasn't arguing that because billions of people believe in it, that in turn makes it true. It was an argument in regards to what underlies that belief, not necessarily whether that belief is true or not. An analogy would be if I responded to someone who believed that people believe the earth was flat because it made them feel good, by pointing out that this is likely not the case, and that they believed the earth is flat because from an intuitive perspective it appears to be flat.

Quote:There is no reason to provide a conception of a godless world.

Except if you're trying to convince someone of it.

Quote:This world is exactly what I would expect to find if it were godless.

I don't find that to be the case at all. I would expect a godless world to be occupied solely by countless forms of bacteria, and not by conscious, self-aware creature. I wouldn't expect a godless world to produce creatures who seek truth, meaning, goodness, creatures with a nagging suspicions that they're hear for a purpose, that there's something more to it, than the sum of it's parts. I wouldn't expect a godless world in which matter no matter how it was arranged would produce any such thing as the aforementioned. I wouldn't expect a godless world to be one in which "the mystery of human existence lies not in staying alive, but in finding something to live for".

Quote:Can you explain what you're saying here a bit better? It seems you are presenting atheism as a Third Way between taking up theism and not taking it up. Atheists are not empty of any beliefs, they simply don't hold unsubstantiated / unsubstantiatable beliefs. Because theism isn't substantiatable we do not afford belief to it. That does not mean we are empty of reasonable beliefs about what is likely to be true about the Great Questions.

I think your general run of the mill atheists, is empty of any alternative beliefs to theisms. This is not true of all atheists, just from my experience your garden variety atheists I wouldn’t say this is true for folks like Daniel Dennett, or Alex Rosenberg etc…

You can easily see this in the numerous appeals to a lack of belief, the common placement of the burden of proof solely on the lap of theist, with the atheist seeing himself absent of any affirmative beliefs to defend or support. Pretty much any argument that I’ve raised here in regards to theism, almost always lack a counter argument, and abundance of individuals appeals to their lack of belief, their skepticism. You may be different of course, but I’m just speaking of my general experience.

To me a self-identifying atheist appears as someone who primarily thinks in terms of why he doesn’t believe in God, or religion, and less about what he actually believes. The latter seems to only muster the most superficial of attention. So little in fact, that a sort of agnosticism, a lack of belief, is the common refrain, the comforting crutch.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-01-2017, 09:27 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(11-01-2017 07:08 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-01-2017 02:33 PM)Cypher44 Wrote:  So.. after my last posts, and the users on this site making it clear, I'm just repeating stuff. I got a good question from a couple of users on this site.

Why does there need to be an deity??
Good question.
The answer :

He may not exist at all but His apparent existence is a sort of comfort for believers
on points such as suffering, the idea of reward for it, the deity also provides a convenient and easy explanation for those hard to explain things i.e.

"Why do I suffer"
It's God, man he's testing you

Like the above, its human nature to try and find answers even if there aren't any.

So in short, there needs to be a deity because His existence helps the vast majority of people just cope with day to day life (I guess) and some people can't accept that the world may JUST HAVE EXISTED, they need a cause and for them, that cause is God..

Be nice in the comments Wink

A belief in a God of some sort, is perhaps one of the most universal of human beliefs, this tendency seems to revolve around the intuitive and hard to dismiss assumption that we're part of a created order.

As a believer I'd put it this way, I find myself a part of existence, in which conscious self-aware creatures exist, creatures who seek meaning, and truth, and goodness, creatures with considerable moral and creative capacities, and sense that there's something more to all this, than the sum of it's parts, who seek purpose, akin to characters in story, who are not entirely aware of it's meaning. Why should i not assume we're a part of a created order, based on this? Why should i see any of these things as a product of uncreated order?

What's interesting is that most atheists one runs across, don't attempt to provide you a conception of a godless world, as if they posses some more believable alternative, instead they appeal to you to a lack a belief, to be agnostic on the question that we're so intuitively inclined to hold.

People like myself tend to believe in God, because the alternative seems a bit absurd, so much so that atheists prefer to lack a belief, than take it up.

Why would we need to provide a conception of a godless universe? Just look around you. Every moment of conscious awareness attests to the fact that reality exists independent of conscious activity. Theism holds that reality does not exist independent of conscious activity. Therefore all our experience shows us that theism holds a false view of reality and therefore should be rejected. It's that simple even though the theist wishes it were'nt. so what. Wishing doesn't make it so.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes true scotsman's post
11-01-2017, 09:28 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(11-01-2017 07:08 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  People like myself tend to believe in God, because the alternative seems a bit absurd, so much so that atheists prefer to lack a belief, than take it up.

Bit hypocritical, don't you think?

(04-04-2016 10:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I hold no religious views I care to defend or argue about with atheists. I made no positive religious claims, so demands that I prove or justify them, are to be ignored. As far as you are to be concerned, I only lack a belief in a variety of things that you do, because in Rome I do as the Romans, and I'm only interested in what the Romans do.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Fatbaldhobbit's post
11-01-2017, 10:22 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(11-01-2017 09:27 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Why would we need to provide a conception of a godless universe?

You don't need to provide anything. But it shouldn't be surprising why people are not inclined to believe in a conception of reality that no ones particularly putting on the table, or providing, or defending. If you don't have one to provide then us theists are unlikely to have one to consider believing in.

Quote:Just look around you. Every moment of conscious awareness attests to the fact that reality exists independent of conscious activity. Theism holds that reality does not exist independent of conscious activity.

I don't know of many theists who hold that there is no mind independent reality. That don't believe in a physical world. But no doubt some do, just not a particularly common belief.

Though I do often hear some interesting arguments for this by non-believers, lhttp://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-01-2017, 11:12 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(10-01-2017 02:46 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  So we need a God of the gaps to fill in all the knowledge we don't have to feel better and sleep at night? We could just say "I don't know." and move on with our lives or better yet, try to figure out the actual answers. If we fool ourselves into thinking we have the answers we won't ever know the real answer and that's really sad.

Also to say humans need any fantasy story to explain their existence to feel better is overly simplistic. If we need any story than why not just accept any story. Why the Abrahamic God story? What makes that one so great?

As an atheist I don't require any fantasy stories to make me feel better or inspire me to be a better person but if I did need one I'd want a better one, without all the dumb sin and human blood sacrifice and virgin births and plagues raining down on innocent people because a God couldn't figure out a way to free slaves without causing so much suffering and misery, etc.

I can sit here and think the Care Bears are real and they grant wishes but that doesn't make it true, I wont' insist on Care Bears being taught in schools and I won't try to start any wars because someone says the Care Bears are made up. So yeah a faith belief that makes you feel good isn't the same as any religious belief, they are very different and actually very dangerous in the wrong hands.

"If we need any story than why not just accept any story. Why the Abrahamic God story? What makes that one so great?"

Nothing special about the Abrahamic God story, you can accept any story. More people just gravitate to believe whichever has been marketed better and the Abrahamic God story is the best marketed of them all

Oh no. He's here - God
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-01-2017, 11:13 AM (This post was last modified: 11-01-2017 11:22 AM by mordant.)
RE: Why should a deity exist?
Duplicate
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes mordant's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: