Why should a deity exist?
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01-02-2017, 02:56 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2017 04:49 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(01-02-2017 02:24 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  Atheist as opposed to faithful...

"Judge not, lest ye be judged".
Sound familiar ?

Atheists really do not accept the notion of a god.
It's not a choice. It's a fact. It's not related in any way to "faithful".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-02-2017, 03:00 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2017 09:16 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(01-02-2017 02:35 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  I define "intelligence" as that which imbues purpose through design. And I see purpose in creatures not designed by the intelligent input of man, but naturally evolved through natural selection.

Ergo, intelligence is not a product of the rational mind. In fact, the rational mind is a product of intelligence.

Perfect example of a circular argument, (with not one of the underlying assumptions supported or defined).
It's also an example of the composition fallacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition

The Catholic Church says god is love, not intelligence.
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/l...ecnum=9375
The Pope does not share your opinion about atheists being "faithless".
http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/st...p?id=51077

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01-02-2017, 03:28 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(01-02-2017 02:17 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  I have a pet theory that "intelligence" is an immutable like "gravity" - it simply "is". Humans can recognize it, can measure and can harness it, but haven't yet created it or fully comprehend it - exactly like gravity.

You said that we could test that. Please elaborate on how. Please also provide the evidence that leads you to think this may be the case in first place.

(01-02-2017 02:35 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  I define "intelligence" as that which imbues purpose through design. And I see purpose in creatures not designed by the intelligent input of man, but naturally evolved through natural selection.

When you say that you "see purpose" you are assuming that what you are seeing was intentionally designed and I don't see that you have any justification for that. There is no evidence of any intentional design going on in the process of natural selection which means there is no intelligence behind it.

The fact that intelligence can use design to create things for a specific purpose doesn't mean that other processes can't produce something that also serves a purpose. You have to separate "useful" from "planned" when talking about what purpose anything serves and you are conflating the two.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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01-02-2017, 05:07 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2017 05:13 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(31-01-2017 01:02 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Deity is avatar of group consciousness. There's a geometry of you, me, and god; a fundamental metaphysical triangle, a basis of structure.





More purfunctory profundities from the prophet. Big Grin

#sigh
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01-02-2017, 05:28 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2017 05:54 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(01-02-2017 02:35 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  I define "intelligence" as that which imbues purpose through design.

That's pretty good. I like it.

(01-02-2017 02:35 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  And I see purpose in creatures not designed by the intelligent input of man, but naturally evolved through natural selection.

uh uh, me too. I'm with you so far.

(01-02-2017 02:35 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  Ergo, intelligence is not a product of the rational mind. In fact, the rational mind is a product of intelligence.

I agree but I don't see no ergo there. Seems unrelated to your premises. Those creatures are displaying intelligence by your definition and early signs of primitive rationality too, but what's that got to do with the rather obvious statement that intelligence is a precursor to reason?

EDIT: Ah, I think I misread you, you mean you see purpose in the mere existence of these creatures not that the creatures show intelligence by imbuing their purpose in their designs. All I see is that it means you don't need intelligence to spawn intelligence, just a sufficiently complex system. Ants ain't intelligent but the colony as a whole is sufficiently complex to imbue its purpose in its designs.

#sigh
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01-02-2017, 05:36 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(01-02-2017 02:29 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  
(30-01-2017 07:27 AM)Velvet Wrote:  They will argue that when you damage the brain you actually diminsh the brain's capability of interacting with this "force".

Yeah... hard to debate when people are not even a bit interested in finding the truth, everything you say becomes just a new obstacle to be "ad-hoc'ed"
Your observation about the participants is interesting as to the difference between the apathy of "I don't care", to the militance of some in here.

I have yet to see anyone attempt to define this "God' they reject. Only vitriol thrown at the descriptions offered.

It is not up to us to define your claim. Facepalm

There is no evidence of any of the gods people claim. We can talk about yours once you have defined it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-02-2017, 05:43 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(01-02-2017 02:35 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  
(01-02-2017 02:28 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  What evidence do you have that intelligence can exist outside of a mind with no physical substrate?

This is an argument from incredulity. Drinking Beverage
I define "intelligence" as that which imbues purpose through design. And I see purpose in creatures not designed by the intelligent input of man, but naturally evolved through natural selection.

You don't understand how natural selection works. There is no intelligence required - it is purely mechanical.

Quote:Ergo, intelligence is not a product of the rational mind. In fact, the rational mind is a product of intelligence.

That is gobbledygook. Rationality is a mode of thinking. Thinking is an emergent property of brains. Intelligence is a measure of thinking.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-02-2017, 05:44 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
I see purpose in worms that have evolved to invade human brains.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/20/health/tap...ade-brain/
Not.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-02-2017, 08:46 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(01-02-2017 02:29 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  I have yet to see anyone attempt to define this "God' they reject. Only vitriol thrown at the descriptions offered.

Hello again JHaysPE! Thumbsup

I understand if you've lost people's reposes to yourself as they slip ever backwards during the progression of the thread. No worries.

So... for some one who sees no evidence of any deity... how am I supposed to define something about which there is seemingly nothing to define? Consider

I would believe the definitions to be supplied about the subject matter of a deity would be by those who spend time actively worshiping/expecting results from said deity, no?

Much cheers to you and yours.
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02-02-2017, 08:16 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(01-02-2017 02:41 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  So indistinguishable from the natural world, i.e. not falsifiable.
I think the first step in falsifying the assertion is to agree on a definition of "intelligence". There are two offered in this chain - one had to do with the acquisition of knowledge, and the other had to do with design expressing a purpose.

I would challenge the mere acquisition of knowledge on the grounds that there are non-rational creatures that exhibit traits of acquired knowledge.

(01-02-2017 02:41 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  How would you make the distinction between natural and supernatural forces acting in the natural world?
"Supernatural", in my opinion, is the expression of choices and actions that are against "nature". And I would define "nature" as that which results in a thriving existence.

As an example, true selfless charity is "supernatural"; it is the expenditure of effort and resources on that which may go against the nature of self-preservation.

Certainly, one who elects "martyrdom" for a cause, is going against nature. In this case, we must distinguish from the martyrdom for good, versus the martyrdom represented by a suicide bomber. And I think that distinction is rooted in a moral distinction of sacrifice for a greater good of humanity, as opposed to an action motivated by the indoctrination of an organization or group with nefarious objectives. The martyr who loses their life trying to save children from the flooding orphanage is distinguished from the jihadist who blows up a public marketplace, killing innocent civilians.
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