Why should a deity exist?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
13-02-2017, 11:42 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-02-2017 10:48 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Cypher44 Wrote:"Why do I suffer"
1) I can know what pain/misery is
2) I can become ALL-knowing diety.
3) I can overcome trials and become a better/stronger person. More godlike.
Suffering is never ennobling. It always diminishes the sufferer.

Suffering is not needed to understand pleasure by way of contrast. All that is needed for that, is different levels of pleasure.

Abject suffering <-- Minor inconvenience <--- neither here nor there --> Mildly amusing --> Utter bliss

Cut off the bottom end of that spectrum, to the left of "neither here nor there" and you can still tell the difference between, and appreciate, different levels of enjoyment / meaning / purpose.

People who really love their fellow man work to do just that: cut off all sources of human suffering. People who want to rationalize their belief in an omnibenevolent deity and reconcile it with experienced reality, on the other hand, make excuses for what they should be working to remove from the human experience to the extent possible, by actually claiming what they should eradicate, is necessary. Or to deflect their personal responsibility in that regard. Or at least to let their deity off the hook.

I am suffering less than at any point in my life and I am stronger for it. Also, I get more out of enjoyment without the distraction of suffering.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes mordant's post
13-02-2017, 11:46 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-02-2017 11:42 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Chas Wrote:That is an ill-formed question. Evolution will produce organisms and no particular organism "needed to be".
1) who says "no particular organism needed to be"?

Everyone who understands evolution.

Quote:2) how do we know this?

There is no need for or evidence of purpose, goals, or direction in evolution.

Quote:
Chas Wrote:But you have no evidence for that belief; it's just wishful thinking.
So?
P.S.You can't prove that my wishful thinking is false.

I don't need to . You are the one making the claim - you provide evidence or your claim is dismissed.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2017, 11:48 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-02-2017 11:42 AM)mordant Wrote:  Suffering is never ennobling. It always diminishes the sufferer.

I dunno about that. I remember staring into the void and smelling it's sickly-sweet breath, both beckoning and revolting, when I lay in a hospital bed with an undiagnosed burst appendix and peritonitis for 16 hours. Think I came out of it for the better for having seen the face of death up close and personal like.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2017, 11:50 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-02-2017 11:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-02-2017 11:42 AM)Alla Wrote:  P.S.You can't prove that my wishful thinking is false.

I don't need to . You are the one making the claim - you provide evidence or your claim is dismissed.

There is strong evidence for the efficacy of the placebo effect.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2017, 11:54 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-02-2017 11:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  There is no need for or evidence of purpose, goals, or direction in evolution.
Agreed, but there is nothing in evolution that prevents one from self-development of any of those things, or from enjoying them. Nor is there any justification for thinking your locus of control is entirely external such that such things must be externally bestowed or they are unobtanium.

Fundamentalist angst always centers around the perceived hopelessness / despair / nihilism they believe magically flows from the rejection of bestowed meaning / purpose / grace. This is a strong misbelief, despite its complete lack of substantiation and the copious evidence the unbelievers do not, to a man-jack, immediately blow their brains out upon rejecting religious faith. Not to mention that believers are not, without exception, content, blissful, mentally adjusted and happy the moment they believe.

Clearly, meaning, purpose, contentment, enjoyment and a sense of security and agency have nothing inherently to do with believing or not believing some random theological assertions. Such beliefs can weakly influence things like happiness, character, morality, etc., but there is no direct correlation.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes mordant's post
13-02-2017, 11:57 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(06-02-2017 12:20 PM)JHaysPE Wrote:  I'd just go back to "Why is there gravity?" Gravity just "is", isn't it? Nobody made it, nobody invented it, it simply exists as a phenomena between two bodies with mass.

So if someone says "Why gravity?", the satisfactory answer is - it just is.

So, now you sound like a Pentecostal.

Nope; you're wrong about gravity. The force between two masses is given by a strict mathematically unerring formula:
[Image: force_of_gravity.PNG]

We can prove this simply by observation and replication.

God and/or gods cannot be observed, and their (purported) influences cannot be replicated. Granted, gravity is, as you say "just is", but you can't say that about supernatural entities and get away with it. Too easy. Sorry.

No

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2017, 12:02 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
mordant Wrote:Suffering is never ennobling. It always diminishes the sufferer.
If I didn't suffer I would never know what patience is.
I would never know what compassion is.
I would never know what charity is.
Charity is the greatest of all.
mordant Wrote:Suffering is not needed to understand pleasure by way of contrast. All that is needed for that, is different levels of pleasure.
Ok.
mordant Wrote:People who really love their fellow man work to do just that: cut off all sources of human suffering.
But if there was no suffering people would never had a chance/an opportunity to do this great and noble work. By doing this work they learn what JOY it brings.
Without suffering you will never experience this kind of JOY.
One great Russian writer M.Bulgakov wrote in his novel "Master and Margarita": "what would your LIGHT DO if there was no darkness?"
mordant Wrote:I am suffering less than at any point in my life and I am stronger for it. Also, I get more out of enjoyment without the distraction of suffering.

When I overcome suffering I experience JOY that I could NOT experience before.
To have FULLNESS of JOY is my goal.
This is the reason why I exist.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Alla's post
13-02-2017, 12:05 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-02-2017 11:15 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(13-02-2017 11:13 AM)Peter Slevon Wrote:  Uncaused existence. Uncaused existence needs no God.
But caused existence needs God

Nope... the fertilisation of an ovum by a sperm needs no paranormal intervention. It's caused by a purely physical, mechanical(!) event. No gods needed.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2017, 12:06 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
Alla: Are you suggesting God created suffering so that others could enjoy easing that suffering?

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2017, 12:15 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-02-2017 11:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-02-2017 11:42 AM)Alla Wrote:  1) who says "no particular organism needed to be"?
Everyone who understands evolution.
why do they say this? what proof do they have?
(13-02-2017 11:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  There is no need for or evidence of purpose, goals, or direction in evolution.
Ok, but I don't ask about this.
(13-02-2017 11:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  I don't need to . You are the one making the claim - you provide evidence or your claim is dismissed.
You don't need to. Of course. But you also can't. So, my wishful thinking can be 100% true. You can be 100% wrong.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: