Why should a deity exist?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
11-01-2017, 11:14 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(11-01-2017 09:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I wasn't arguing that because billions of people believe in it, that in turn makes it true. It was an argument in regards to what underlies that belief, not necessarily whether that belief is true or not. An analogy would be if I responded to someone who believed the earth was flat because it made them feel good, by pointing out that this is likely not the case, and that they believed the earth is flat because from an intuitive perspective it appears to be flat.
Thanks for making my point for me. I don't know how this helps you. Intuitive <> true. We agree on that.
(11-01-2017 09:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:There is no reason to provide a conception of a godless world.
Except if you're trying to convince someone of it.
Just because theists make up a world or worldview doesn't mean I need to. I have the actual, real world, and it's all I need to see that it is far better explained by an absent, indifferent, or non-existent deity than by a personal interventionist deity.
(11-01-2017 09:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:This world is exactly what I would expect to find if it were godless.
I don't find that to be the case at all. I would expect a godless world to be occupied solely by countless forms of bacteria, and not by conscious, self-aware creature.
Circular argument and I don't even understand how you plausibly start the circle. Natural selection doesn't require a deity or uncaused first cause. It makes no special pleading for self-awareness requiring those things either.
(11-01-2017 09:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I wouldn't expect a godless world to produce creatures who seek truth, meaning, goodness, creatures with a nagging suspicions that they're hear [sic] for a purpose, that there's something more to it, than the sum of it's [sic] parts. I wouldn't expect a godless world in which matter no matter how it was arranged would produce any such thing as the aforementioned. I wouldn't expect a godless world to be one in which "the mystery of human existence lies not in staying alive, but in finding something to live for".
Perhaps you could explain how this is anything other than an argument from incredulity.
Quote:Can you explain what you're saying here a bit better?
(11-01-2017 09:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think your general run of the mill atheists, is empty of any alternative beliefs to theisms. This is not true of all atheists, just from my experience your garden variety atheists I wouldn’t say this is true for folks like Daniel Dennett, or Alex Rosenberg etc.
I don't see what this has to do with anything. Not affording belief to deities doesn't obligate me to "come up with" an alternative belief-system or philosophy beyond what I require for my own personal use. However, as you point out, that one is an atheist is not in any way incompatible with being a philosopher should they choose to do so.

You seem to be arguing that everyone deserves to have a fully grown and curated belief-system presented to them before they decide what's likely to be (un)true and that it's somehow damning that atheism hasn't presented a system that is more appealing over that of any presented by theism.

However the real situation is that a belief system that is more likely to be true would not necessarily be more appealing, particularly to someone already dependent on comforting lies. Some truths are hard, stark truths, but that is no reason to reject them AS truth.
(11-01-2017 09:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You can easily see this in the numerous appeals to a lack of belief, the common placement of the burden of proof solely on the lap of theist, with the atheist seeing himself absent of any affirmative beliefs to defend or support. Pretty much any argument that I’ve raised here in regards to theism, almost always lack a counter argument, and abundance of individuals appeals to their lack of belief, their skepticism. You may be different of course, but I’m just speaking of my general experience.
I'm sorry that the burden of proof lies with the one making the positive claim. And I'm sorry that many atheists don't make positive claims where theists do. We won't do that unless and until there is a supportable reason to do so. [shrug]
(11-01-2017 09:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  To me a self-identifying atheist appears as someone who primarily thinks in terms of why he doesn’t believe in God, or religion, and less about what he actually believes. The latter seems to only muster the most superficial of attention. So little in fact, that a sort of agnosticism, a lack of belief, is the common refrain, the comforting crutch.
As a deconvert my path toward atheism just happens to be a path away from theism and the story arc is defined by what I found non-credible about theism. If you want to know what replaces that I would have to say it is simply a respect for What Is. I'll put in that unctuous capitalization to signify that reality, the natural world, is an entirely satisfying reward for rejecting the fairy tales of my faith of origin. It only has to satisfy me, not you. I don't see it as a weakness. I see it as a feature.

Now I have had many useful insights of a philosophical nature once my mind was free of artificial taboos. I particularly found Ernst Becker's ideas, particularly in Denial of Death and Escape from Evil, to be helpful to explain how immortality projects like religion work, how religion evolved, and why it no longer serves us in our present state of human development, and then to tease at some things that might serve us better while still refusing to Just Make Things Up and being willing to approach the question with humility and patience.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes mordant's post
11-01-2017, 11:16 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(11-01-2017 11:12 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  "If we need any story than why not just accept any story. Why the Abrahamic God story? What makes that one so great?"

Nothing special about the Abrahamic God story, you can accept any story. More people just gravitate to believe whichever has been marketed better and the Abrahamic God story is the best marketed of them all

And you don't see the problem with that?

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-01-2017, 11:16 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(11-01-2017 11:12 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  
(10-01-2017 02:46 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  So we need a God of the gaps to fill in all the knowledge we don't have to feel better and sleep at night? We could just say "I don't know." and move on with our lives or better yet, try to figure out the actual answers. If we fool ourselves into thinking we have the answers we won't ever know the real answer and that's really sad.

Also to say humans need any fantasy story to explain their existence to feel better is overly simplistic. If we need any story than why not just accept any story. Why the Abrahamic God story? What makes that one so great?

As an atheist I don't require any fantasy stories to make me feel better or inspire me to be a better person but if I did need one I'd want a better one, without all the dumb sin and human blood sacrifice and virgin births and plagues raining down on innocent people because a God couldn't figure out a way to free slaves without causing so much suffering and misery, etc.

I can sit here and think the Care Bears are real and they grant wishes but that doesn't make it true, I wont' insist on Care Bears being taught in schools and I won't try to start any wars because someone says the Care Bears are made up. So yeah a faith belief that makes you feel good isn't the same as any religious belief, they are very different and actually very dangerous in the wrong hands.

"If we need any story than why not just accept any story. Why the Abrahamic God story? What makes that one so great?"

Nothing special about the Abrahamic God story, you can accept any story. More people just gravitate to believe whichever has been marketed better and the Abrahamic God story is the best marketed of them all

If by marketed you mean imposed by threat of death in times past or being made popular by indoctrination of children then you're kinda right.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Szuchow's post
11-01-2017, 11:23 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(10-01-2017 03:15 PM)julep Wrote:  Is this a description of your position? "God may not exist, but nonbelievers should not oppose other people believing in god, because the idea of god is comforting to many people. Let people have their illusions, if it makes them feel better."

I could get behind this idea, were it not for...the entirety of human history. Human history is full of people using god to justify behaving awfully towards one another. "God" isn't just a comfort to people struggling with diseases and natural disasters; people use the god concept as they kill, subjugate, and ostracize. For every person looking to the idea of god for personal comfort, there's another person looking to the idea of god for personal power.

Also, I don't think people are so stupid or fearful, generally, that they will be lost without the idea of a god; that's a lie propagated by the clergy, who have the most at stake if people abandon religion. With a decent education and without being surrounded by others telling them they would go to hell, I think most people get along without god just fine.

Yes, most people would (if they tried) live easily without belief in a Supreme Being
But they have been indoctrinated so well and it has become such an ingrained part of their reality that they just don't want to try to live without belief in a Supreme Being.

Oh no. He's here - God
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-01-2017, 11:25 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(11-01-2017 07:42 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 07:19 AM)Aliza Wrote:  He seems like he's making efforts to reinterpret his religious knowledge into one of kindness and compassion, and he's just here expressing his ideas. It's not like he's trying to sell them to us. Whether I agree with his ideas or not, I think it's a step in the right direction that many Christians can afford to take.

Wait... maybe I'm reading this wrong. Cypher, are you here to convince us to believe what you believe, or just to share what you think?
I think he is preacher in disguise. His lack of reaction to posts in his thread seems to imply that he is interested in preaching his headcanon not discussion.
I'm no preacher.. don't worry.. I'm just really busy and my way of explaining things is kind of terrible

Oh no. He's here - God
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-01-2017, 11:26 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(11-01-2017 11:12 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  "If we need any story than why not just accept any story. Why the Abrahamic God story? What makes that one so great?"

Nothing special about the Abrahamic God story, you can accept any story. More people just gravitate to believe whichever has been marketed better and the Abrahamic God story is the best marketed of them all.
I think Thomasia may regard it a valid methodology to determine what is true, to simply look at the worldviews and beliefs that arise from the basic truth claims rather than at the truth claims themselves. I don't see life as a smorgasbord of philosophies and I don't see the philosophy that is most likely to be true to have anything to do with me finding it the most appealing or "helpful". I want to drill down to the underlying premises and determine if it's FOUNDED on anything that is actually likely to be true. If no, then I don't care what pleasant customs and rituals surround the ideas, or how they help me get to sleep at night or whatever.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-01-2017, 11:26 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
Some things never change. Like Tomato preaching his bullshit while claiming that he doesn't and won't defend it to atheists on the atheist site he is preaching it on. Drinking Beverage In other news, water is wet Laugh out load

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-01-2017, 11:26 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(10-01-2017 02:33 PM)Cypher44 Wrote:  Why does there need to be an deity??
Good question.
The answer :

He may not exist at all but His apparent existence is a sort of comfort for believers
On another note,
Why is the deity assumed to be a "he"?

If gods didn't come about due to sexual reproduction via a lengthy evolution process then there really is no "he".

Does this merely betray the male dominated origins of society at the time the "deity" idea was created?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-01-2017, 11:31 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(11-01-2017 11:26 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(10-01-2017 02:33 PM)Cypher44 Wrote:  Why does there need to be an deity??
Good question.
The answer :

He may not exist at all but His apparent existence is a sort of comfort for believers
On another note,
Why is the deity assumed to be a "he"?

If gods didn't come about due to sexual reproduction via a lengthy evolution process then there really is no "he".

Does this merely betray the male dominated origins of society at the time the "deity" idea was created?
Sorry I grew up referring to God as "He" but God could be any sex or it may not have a gender. So.. I think I'm betraying the male dominated origins of society at the time

Oh no. He's here - God
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-01-2017, 11:42 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(11-01-2017 11:25 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 07:42 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  I think he is preacher in disguise. His lack of reaction to posts in his thread seems to imply that he is interested in preaching his headcanon not discussion.
I'm no preacher.. don't worry.. I'm just really busy and my way of explaining things is kind of terrible

It's not about your ability to explain things but rather not taking part in discussions you started.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: