Why should a deity exist?
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13-02-2017, 12:16 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-02-2017 12:06 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  Alla: Are you suggesting God created suffering so that others could enjoy easing that suffering?
No. I didn't even say that God created suffering.

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13-02-2017, 12:18 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-02-2017 12:05 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(13-02-2017 11:15 AM)Alla Wrote:  But caused existence needs God

Nope... the fertilisation of an ovum by a sperm needs no paranormal intervention. It's caused by a purely physical, mechanical(!) event. No gods needed.
I didn't say that ALL caused existence needs Gods, did I?

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13-02-2017, 12:23 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-02-2017 10:48 AM)Alla Wrote:  2) I can become ALL-knowing diety.

It appears you are just a tich over-optimistic.
Facepalm

Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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13-02-2017, 12:24 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-02-2017 12:23 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(13-02-2017 10:48 AM)Alla Wrote:  2) I can become ALL-knowing diety.

It appears you are just a tich over-optimistic.
Facepalm

Weeping

Smile

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13-02-2017, 01:05 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-02-2017 11:48 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(13-02-2017 11:42 AM)mordant Wrote:  Suffering is never ennobling. It always diminishes the sufferer.

I dunno about that. I remember staring into the void and smelling it's sickly-sweet breath, both beckoning and revolting, when I lay in a hospital bed with an undiagnosed burst appendix and peritonitis for 16 hours. Think I came out of it for the better for having seen the face of death up close and personal like.
I never said you can't make lemonade out of lemons or make the best of a bad job. I just said your burst appendix wasn't necessary for you to deal with the fact of your own mortality. You could have done that any number of ways.

Just because ill fortune wakes some people up doesn't mean it's the only or best way for that to happen.
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13-02-2017, 01:16 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-02-2017 12:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  
mordant Wrote:Suffering is never ennobling. It always diminishes the sufferer.
If I didn't suffer I would never know what patience is.
I would never know what compassion is.
I would never know what charity is.
I don't know about others, but I have never needed suffering to understand and value patience, compassion or love. Maybe you should raise your level of awareness so that you can see and value those things without constant wake-up calls.

I mean, you're like an alcoholic at an AA meeting, saying that without hitting your personal bottom via booze you would never know / learn self-control. And yet many people know sobriety without that struggle. Just as many people are patient, compassionate and loving without remarkable personal suffering.

It is just a rationalization that suffering is the only path to these things.
mordant Wrote:People who really love their fellow man work to do just that: cut off all sources of human suffering.
(13-02-2017 12:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  But if there was no suffering people would never had a chance/an opportunity to do this great and noble work. By doing this work they learn what JOY it brings.
Without suffering you will never experience this kind of JOY.
This is circular reasoning, pure and simple. It's like saying that if there were no war, people would never know the joy of living in peace. That's horseshit. Take a people with no societal memory of war, and subject them to war, and they will be devastated, which proves they value peace on its own merits.
mordant Wrote:I am suffering less than at any point in my life and I am stronger for it. Also, I get more out of enjoyment without the distraction of suffering.

(13-02-2017 12:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  When I overcome suffering I experience JOY that I could NOT experience before.
I have done a great deal of suffering and I do not credit it with one iota of my contentment. I am content / happy in SPITE of it. It is a function of my willingness to let go of my suffering as a sunk cost that allows this.

Are you perchance from a Catholic background? Because I don't often encounter the glorification of suffering from New Age types.
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13-02-2017, 01:17 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-02-2017 01:05 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(13-02-2017 11:48 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I dunno about that. I remember staring into the void and smelling it's sickly-sweet breath, both beckoning and revolting, when I lay in a hospital bed with an undiagnosed burst appendix and peritonitis for 16 hours. Think I came out of it for the better for having seen the face of death up close and personal like.

I never said you can't make lemonade out of lemons or make the best of a bad job. I just said your burst appendix wasn't necessary for you to deal with the fact of your own mortality. You could have done that any number of ways.

That is true. But I doubt I'd find many as efficient and effective. Comes with a money-back guarantee.

#sigh
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13-02-2017, 01:53 PM (This post was last modified: 13-02-2017 01:56 PM by Alla.)
RE: Why should a deity exist?
mordant Wrote:I don't know about others, but I have never needed suffering to understand and value patience, compassion or love. Maybe you should raise your level of awareness so that you can see and value those things without constant wake-up calls.
I mean, you're like an alcoholic at an AA meeting, saying that without hitting your personal bottom via booze you would never know / learn self-control. And yet many people know sobriety without that struggle. Just as many people are patient, compassionate and loving without remarkable personal suffering.
It is just a rationalization that suffering is the only path to these things.
I am saying that without suffering there is no need for compassion, patience, and charity. When people do good/charity out of compassion they experience special kind of joy and they bring special kind of joy to others. Just remember those moments when you helped someone and made her/him happy. Don't you love that feeling? If yes, why would you want to rob yourself from that feeling?

mordant Wrote:It's like saying that if there were no war, people would never know the joy of living in peace.
No, if there was no war, people would not know how to CREATE peace. I want to learn how to CREATE peace. Creating peace is bringing special kind of joy.
mordant Wrote:Are you perchance from a Catholic background? Because I don't often encounter the glorification of suffering from New Age types.
I am from Soviet Union atheist back ground.
I do not glorify suffering. I hate suffering. But I know I need it to have learning opportunities. For example, I can learn how to create peace or how to be compassionate.

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13-02-2017, 02:03 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-02-2017 01:53 PM)Alla Wrote:  I am saying that without suffering there is no need for compassion, patience, and charity. When people do good/charity out of compassion they experience special kind of joy and they bring special kind of joy to others. Just remember those moments when you helped someone and made her/him happy. Don't you love that feeling? If yes, why would you want to rob yourself from that feeling?

I'd much rather there be no need for compassion, patience and charity, and look for joy and personal fulfillment at a higher level. If I could reduce the amount of pain on earth I would be quite content to go without the satisfaction of relieving that pain.

I'm sorry, but your beliefs are much too silly to take seriously. Got anything else we can discuss?
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13-02-2017, 02:16 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-02-2017 12:15 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(13-02-2017 11:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  Everyone who understands evolution.
why do they say this? what proof do they have?

Not proof - evidence. There is no evidence of anything but natural causes in evolution.

Quote:
(13-02-2017 11:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  There is no need for or evidence of purpose, goals, or direction in evolution.
Ok, but I don't ask about this.
(13-02-2017 11:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  I don't need to . You are the one making the claim - you provide evidence or your claim is dismissed.
You don't need to. Of course. But you also can't. So, my wishful thinking can be 100% true. You can be 100% wrong.

No, dear. There is no evidence for your claim and a great deal of evidence for a purely natural universe.
You are likely wrong and I am likely right based on the preponderance of evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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