Why should a deity exist?
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11-01-2017, 11:44 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(11-01-2017 11:42 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 11:25 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  I'm no preacher.. don't worry.. I'm just really busy and my way of explaining things is kind of terrible

It's not about your ability to explain things but rather not taking part in discussions you started.

Well I'll get started then

Oh no. He's here - God
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11-01-2017, 11:57 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(10-01-2017 02:59 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(10-01-2017 02:33 PM)Cypher44 Wrote:  So.. after my last posts, and the users on this site making it clear, I'm just repeating stuff. I got a good question from a couple of users on this site.

Why does there need to be an deity??
Good question.
The answer :

He may not exist at all but His apparent existence is a sort of comfort for believers
on points such as suffering, the idea of reward for it, the deity also provides a convenient and easy explanation for those hard to explain things i.e.

"Why do I suffer"
It's God, man he's testing you

God offers only simplistic explanation, or in fact no explanation at all. Answering to "why I suffer" question with "cause god is testing you" is just like saying just because. It's non answer, just like any other answer that can be summed as "god did it".

ETA: Also it would mean that god is a dick. Suffering making one stronger is just fanciful tale invented to give it a meaning.

Quote:Like the above, its human nature to try and find answers even if there aren't any.

There are much better answers than god concerning suffering and other things too.

Quote:So in short, there needs to be a deity because His existence helps the vast majority of people just cope with day to day life (I guess) and some people can't accept that the world may JUST HAVE EXISTED, they need a cause and for them, that cause is God..

So Marx was right?

Here's the thing though - with focus on education and eradication of poverty god and whatever "comfort" religion provide won't be needed. If some placebo or rather homeopathic shit helps people to cope with their lot, then real medicine would fare better I wager.

Also most importantly you conveniently forget about indoctrination. Belief in fairy tales does not came from nowhere, people are indoctrinated to believe; religion is very good at selling medicine to ills that it forces on people.

"There are much better answers than god concerning suffering and other things too."

There are.. but devout theists just seem to refuse any other explanation.

Its a bit like this:

Devout Theist - Suffering is a test from God.
Me - Uhh. Suffering could be due to humans
Devout Theist - Nothing happens that isn't the will of God.
Me - Why would an omnibenevolent God intentionally hurt people?
Devout Theist - God sees the bigger picture, you cannot

For every question which challenges God, these devout theists have their answers and most are unwilling to consider new viewpoints or more rational answers, they're like allergic to change Big Grin

I try and consider new ideas (I think)

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11-01-2017, 12:09 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(11-01-2017 11:57 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  
(10-01-2017 02:59 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  God offers only simplistic explanation, or in fact no explanation at all. Answering to "why I suffer" question with "cause god is testing you" is just like saying just because. It's non answer, just like any other answer that can be summed as "god did it".

ETA: Also it would mean that god is a dick. Suffering making one stronger is just fanciful tale invented to give it a meaning.


There are much better answers than god concerning suffering and other things too.


So Marx was right?

Here's the thing though - with focus on education and eradication of poverty god and whatever "comfort" religion provide won't be needed. If some placebo or rather homeopathic shit helps people to cope with their lot, then real medicine would fare better I wager.

Also most importantly you conveniently forget about indoctrination. Belief in fairy tales does not came from nowhere, people are indoctrinated to believe; religion is very good at selling medicine to ills that it forces on people.

"There are much better answers than god concerning suffering and other things too."

There are.. but devout theists just seem to refuse any other explanation.

Its a bit like this:

Devout Theist - Suffering is a test from God.
Me - Uhh. Suffering could be due to humans
Devout Theist - Nothing happens that isn't the will of God.
Me - Why would an omnibenevolent God intentionally hurt people?
Devout Theist - God sees the bigger picture, you cannot

For every question which challenges God, these devout theists have their answers and most are unwilling to consider new viewpoints or more rational answers, they're like allergic to change Big Grin

I try and consider new ideas (I think)

I'm aware that some people are so brainwashed and needy that they can't see beyond god glasses which were put on them. But it has little bearing on necessity of god existence. Were it not for indoctrination that is active conning of people into belief that god is answer for questions they wouldn't even ask if not for brainwashing then I doubt that deity would be seen as necessary or useful in explaining world.

Religion sells cure (salvation) to illness it create (hell). Nothing supportive in it, just a scam with heavy dose of guilt tripping.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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11-01-2017, 04:19 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(11-01-2017 11:31 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  Sorry I grew up referring to God as "He" but God could be any sex or it may not have a gender. So.. I think I'm betraying the male dominated origins of society at the time

This is a wise insight.

From an evolutionary point of view, everything was female until the invention of sexual reproduction, and the "male" characteristic evolved... later becoming the infamous Y-chromosome that we have in vertebrates, including ourselves (there are some odd exceptions... W's, for instance). We even start out as female in early embryonic development, when the "damaged" Y chromosome's "developmental instruction" genes causes a change in the hormone levels which diverts the developmental course onto the path that will cause all those developing female parts to become male ones.

So technically, if there is a Creator of the Universe™, there is zero reason to think its traits are those of creatures that didn't evolve until halfway through life's time on earth, while everything was still monocellular.

Thus, if we are to assume the existence of God for the sake of argument, then She is by default female. Only the patriarchal culture of the Hebrews during the Iron Age made maleness the standard. Thus, I like to call God "She" when speaking to Christians, even ones who acknowledge the reality of evolution, since most of them still innately think of God as a dude.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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11-01-2017, 05:02 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(11-01-2017 11:23 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  
(10-01-2017 03:15 PM)julep Wrote:  Is this a description of your position? "God may not exist, but nonbelievers should not oppose other people believing in god, because the idea of god is comforting to many people. Let people have their illusions, if it makes them feel better."

I could get behind this idea, were it not for...the entirety of human history. Human history is full of people using god to justify behaving awfully towards one another. "God" isn't just a comfort to people struggling with diseases and natural disasters; people use the god concept as they kill, subjugate, and ostracize. For every person looking to the idea of god for personal comfort, there's another person looking to the idea of god for personal power.

Also, I don't think people are so stupid or fearful, generally, that they will be lost without the idea of a god; that's a lie propagated by the clergy, who have the most at stake if people abandon religion. With a decent education and without being surrounded by others telling them they would go to hell, I think most people get along without god just fine.

Yes, most people would (if they tried) live easily without belief in a Supreme Being
But they have been indoctrinated so well and it has become such an ingrained part of their reality that they just don't want to try to live without belief in a Supreme Being.

Your answer does not address the question you raised in the OP or my points about the god concept and belief in it being far from harmless, however.
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11-01-2017, 11:00 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(11-01-2017 10:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 09:27 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Why would we need to provide a conception of a godless universe?

You don't need to provide anything. But it shouldn't be surprising why people are not inclined to believe in a conception of reality that no ones particularly putting on the table, or providing, or defending. If you don't have one to provide then us theists are unlikely to have one to consider believing in.

Quote:Just look around you. Every moment of conscious awareness attests to the fact that reality exists independent of conscious activity. Theism holds that reality does not exist independent of conscious activity.

I don't know of many theists who hold that there is no mind independent reality. That don't believe in a physical world. But no doubt some do, just not a particularly common belief.

Though I do often hear some interesting arguments for this by non-believers, lhttp://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/

You misunderstand my meaning. By "exists independent of conscious activity", I mean that reality is not dependent on, is not the product of and does not conform to conscious activity such as wanting, wishing, praying, believing or demanding. Every conscious moment of every day affirms this. Theism most definitely does affirm the opposite view that reality or the universe is dependent on, is the product of and does conform to a consciousness' intentions. So the the rational position is to reject theism on the grounds that it holds a false view of reality. So we don't need to provide a conception of a godless reality. We are living in one and the only way to form a concept of anything else is to imagine it. Do you recognize the fundamental distinction between the real and the imaginary?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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11-01-2017, 11:46 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(11-01-2017 07:19 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 06:09 AM)morondog Wrote:  A deity should exist because it'd be nice if it did? Rolleyes Oh man.

Anyway Christian God is not very nice, if we define existence of Gods by what we prefer then I prefer that he doesn't exist.

He seems like he's making efforts to reinterpret his religious knowledge into one of kindness and compassion, and he's just here expressing his ideas. It's not like he's trying to sell them to us. Whether I agree with his ideas or not, I think it's a step in the right direction that many Christians can afford to take.

Wait... maybe I'm reading this wrong. Cypher, are you here to convince us to believe what you believe, or just to share what you think?

Is fine, since he's exposing the said ideas to criticism I reckon a lil' nudge pointing out lunacy is warranted Tongue

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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12-01-2017, 04:52 AM (This post was last modified: 12-01-2017 04:56 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(10-01-2017 02:33 PM)Cypher44 Wrote:  "Why do I suffer"
It's God, man he's testing you

Like the above, its human nature to try and find answers even if there aren't any.

So in short, there needs to be a deity because His existence helps the vast majority of people just cope with day to day life (I guess) and some people can't accept that the world may JUST HAVE EXISTED, they need a cause and for them, that cause is God..

Kids with cancer?

Eyeball eating parasites?

Tsunamis? Earthquakes? Volcanoes? Hurricanes? Tornadoes?


If those are a test, the thing responsible is a cunt. If you placed your infant child in the middle of a minefield, and used the excuse 'it was a test', you'd rightly be seen as a moral monster. Why does a deity get a pass? Why the double standard?

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12-01-2017, 05:08 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(12-01-2017 04:52 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(10-01-2017 02:33 PM)Cypher44 Wrote:  "Why do I suffer"
It's God, man he's testing you

Like the above, its human nature to try and find answers even if there aren't any.

So in short, there needs to be a deity because His existence helps the vast majority of people just cope with day to day life (I guess) and some people can't accept that the world may JUST HAVE EXISTED, they need a cause and for them, that cause is God..

Kids with cancer?

Eyeball eating parasites?

Tsunamis? Earthquakes? Volcanoes? Hurricanes? Tornadoes?


If those are a test, the thing responsible is a cunt. If you placed your infant child in the middle of a minefield, and used the excuse 'it was a test', you'd rightly be seen as a moral monster. Why does a deity get a pass? Why the double standard?

Why deity get a pass? Cause believers can't bear the thought that their space daddy is evil. It would reflect badly on them.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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12-01-2017, 05:17 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(12-01-2017 05:08 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Why deity get a pass? Cause believers can't bear the thought that their space daddy is evil. It would reflect badly on them.

If space daddy is evil (and one is a believer) it turns from "Follow because you choose to" to "Follow because you are forced". Believers who choose to follow are so much happier and more lucrative for the church Blush even if it means putting up with a bit of unreason in one's theology.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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