Why should a deity exist?
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12-01-2017, 10:21 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(12-01-2017 07:08 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 05:02 PM)julep Wrote:  Your answer does not address the question you raised in the OP or my points about the god concept and belief in it being far from harmless, however.

As for the idea that the God concept has caused suffering.. yes it has.. I agree.. It has been twisted by others in order to solidify their own power and subjugate others. (Crusades) but I personally don't think that if everyone did away with the concept of God, all that would happen is, a new concept would be created which would be used to subjugate others.. All we can do now.. is look to the future and endeavour to ensure that the idea of God is not misused for power again.. -C


Or you could just dump the idea altogether, as having outlived it's usefulness, and proactively come up with something better. No one is stuck with ancient memes.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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12-01-2017, 10:38 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(12-01-2017 10:21 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(12-01-2017 07:08 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  As for the idea that the God concept has caused suffering.. yes it has.. I agree.. It has been twisted by others in order to solidify their own power and subjugate others. (Crusades) but I personally don't think that if everyone did away with the concept of God, all that would happen is, a new concept would be created which would be used to subjugate others.. All we can do now.. is look to the future and endeavour to ensure that the idea of God is not misused for power again.. -C


No one is stuck with ancient memes.

Except for christians, muslims and jews Wink

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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12-01-2017, 11:37 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(12-01-2017 10:38 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(12-01-2017 10:21 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  No one is stuck with ancient memes.

Except for christians, muslims and jews Wink

Maybe. Tongue
150 years ago you think anyone was running around saying "God is love" ?
I think not.
The notion of what a god is has radically changed over the centuries, and even in our recent past. The notions of what are *most important* to humans has also radically changed, at the same time. Coincidence ? Nope.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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12-01-2017, 11:40 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(12-01-2017 11:37 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(12-01-2017 10:38 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Except for christians, muslims and jews Wink

Maybe. Tongue
150 years ago you think anyone was running around saying "God is love" ?
I think not.
The notion of what a god is has radically changed over the centuries, and even in our recent past. The notions of what are *most important* to humans has also radically changed, at the same time. Coincidence ? Nope.

It's possible that humans won't stay stuck with religion but I have little hope of people escaping from it's clutches during my lifetime.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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12-01-2017, 05:40 PM
Why should a deity exist?
(11-01-2017 11:00 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  You misunderstand my meaning. By "exists independent of conscious activity", I mean that reality is not dependent on, is not the product of and does not conform to conscious activity such as wanting, wishing, praying, believing or demanding. Every conscious moment of every day affirms this. Theism most definitely does affirm the opposite view that reality or the universe is dependent on, is the product of and does conform to a consciousness' intentions. So the the rational position is to reject theism on the grounds that it holds a false view of reality. So we don't need to provide a conception of a godless reality. We are living in one and the only way to form a concept of anything else is to imagine it. Do you recognize the fundamental distinction between the real and the imaginary?

Still not entirely sure what you mean, but I do think you forget that theism contains a wide variety of perspective, anything other than atheism, is some form of theism. Diesm, panentheism, polytheism, etc.. are forms of theism. In fact some form of theism, such as spinozas hold to an entirely naturalistic view of reality.

I think you might have a single form of theism in mind, while I don't here.





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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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12-01-2017, 05:48 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(12-01-2017 11:37 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(12-01-2017 10:38 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Except for christians, muslims and jews Wink

Maybe. Tongue
150 years ago you think anyone was running around saying "God is love" ?
I think not.
The notion of what a god is has radically changed over the centuries, and even in our recent past. The notions of what are *most important* to humans has also radically changed, at the same time. Coincidence ? Nope.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world...."

Of course choosing who is elect and who is not and damned from the beginning of time seems to be a problem with this love concept.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

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12-01-2017, 07:04 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(12-01-2017 05:40 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  ... anything other than atheism, is some form of theism. Diesm, panentheism, polytheism, etc.. are forms of theism. In fact some form of theism, such as spinozas hold to an entirely naturalistic view of reality.
Well by definition, yes, if you're not an atheist, you're a theist. However ... that is not the same thing as saying your either areligious or religious. There are religions who don't have deities ... Buddhism, Taoism, and then there are ideologies that don't really qualify as religions as they lack clergy and ritual, but also have a deity or quasi-deity on offer (I would regard Spinoza's concept of god as the latter, perhaps the prototype of the deist "sortagod", or an elevation of nature to having a sort of half-assed agency of its own). There are post-Christian church-like congregations that are non-creedal, like the Unitarian-Universalists, who accept atheists as members. There is no shortage of blurring of lines given that you can have areligious theists and religious atheists.

But it's not a problem so long as you understand that (a)theism is a very narrow belief position about a single thing (belief in the existence of one or more deities) and allows a lot of latitude about virtually everything else.

I am sure that the scotsman understands this. Yes we tend to address gnostic theists (fundamentalists and some centrists mostly, anyone claiming that god is knowable and that they know him personally) because it's the most logically untenable form of theism. But we're certainly not unaware of the diversity of belief and practice of both theists and atheists.
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12-01-2017, 07:08 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
At work.

I think, reading Tomasia's reply, that they have missed True Scott's man(s) point.
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12-01-2017, 09:23 PM
Why should a deity exist?
Cause the bible tells me so...

P.s. yes Jesus loves me

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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12-01-2017, 11:04 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(12-01-2017 09:57 AM)mordant Wrote:  
(12-01-2017 09:44 AM)unfogged Wrote:  It isn't charity when it demands a fee even if that fee is just sitting through a sermon before getting the help. That isn't altruism, it's how you sell time-shares.
This was in fact another nail in the coffin of my faith. I friend of mine and his wife were missionaries to Mexico and I managed his mailing list and the production of his newsletter.

When Hurricane Gilbert decimated crops in the Yucatan he organized trainloads of grain to be shipped there to the poor villages. He was even canny enough to bribe corrupt border officials to let the trains pass. But when the grain was delivered, it was connected with various pomp and circumstance including a requirement that the peasants watch a Spanish-dubbed dramatization of the life of Christ before taking delivery of the grain. That was a real turn off for me.

It is like what you see a lot among political conservatives who swear up and down they don't have a racist bone in their body while making clearly racist remarks or being completely blind to their own prejudice. This guy had real compassion for the people he was "helping" but just could not see the monstrous arrogance of ramrodding his ideology down their throats in the process. The main driver behind this in evangelical circles has been a teaching against the "social gospel" -- the notion that meeting people's practical needs as an act of pure compassion is as important as meeting their "spiritual needs". Evangelicals pride themselves on elevating their imagined notion of "spiritual needs" above the physical and even believe that only in meeting spiritual needs will it be possible to advance people in practical matters.

In other words, it's a fancy way of saying that people's misfortune is their own fault somehow, that god's displeasure with their sins is blocking the blessing and grace of god in their lives.

This also manifested itself in a remarkable lack of compassion for the chronically ill. My late prior wife was in terrible shape for years, but the random up and down-cycles of her symptoms made it difficult for her to commit to the church's weekly circle-jerks. As soon as a church found out she was not able to get with the scheduled program and be "committed" in a particular way, they had no use for her, since she was assumed to be some sort of uncommitted backslider, and to some extent, they suspected god was "testing" or "teaching" her some lesson that they'd be interfering with by making any accommodations for her. She lived out her final years friendless in terms of those who shared her religious beliefs because of this.

That's some pretty horrible shit Dodgy I remember reading a book by a guy who'd travelled to Mongolia and similarly, every family had one "Christian" because the local missionary crew were handing out food, but only to Christians. Using food to force beliefs on people is despicable. Sorry about your wife. Those dickheads sound like they were never true friends to begin with Undecided

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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