Why should a deity exist?
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12-01-2017, 11:15 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(12-01-2017 05:40 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 11:00 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  You misunderstand my meaning. By "exists independent of conscious activity", I mean that reality is not dependent on, is not the product of and does not conform to conscious activity such as wanting, wishing, praying, believing or demanding. Every conscious moment of every day affirms this. Theism most definitely does affirm the opposite view that reality or the universe is dependent on, is the product of and does conform to a consciousness' intentions. So the the rational position is to reject theism on the grounds that it holds a false view of reality. So we don't need to provide a conception of a godless reality. We are living in one and the only way to form a concept of anything else is to imagine it. Do you recognize the fundamental distinction between the real and the imaginary?

Still not entirely sure what you mean, but I do think you forget that theism contains a wide variety of perspective, anything other than atheism, is some form of theism. Diesm, panentheism, polytheism, etc.. are forms of theism. In fact some form of theism, such as spinozas hold to an entirely naturalistic view of reality.

I think you might have a single form of theism in mind, while I don't here.





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A few simple pointed questions will help to tease out my meaning.

Most brands of theism hold that God is conscious? Does your particular brand hold this? By conscious I mean aware of any objects distinct from itself.

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12-01-2017, 11:48 PM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(12-01-2017 07:04 PM)mordant Wrote:  Well by definition, yes, if you're not an atheist, you're a theist. However ... that is not the same thing as saying your either areligious or religious. There are religions who don't have deities ... Buddhism, Taoism, and then there are ideologies that don't really qualify as religions as they lack clergy and ritual, but also have a deity or quasi-deity on offer (I would regard Spinoza's concept of god as the latter, perhaps the prototype of the deist "sortagod", or an elevation of nature to having a sort of half-assed agency of its own). There are post-Christian church-like congregations that are non-creedal, like the Unitarian-Universalists, who accept atheists as members. There is no shortage of blurring of lines given that you can have areligious theists and religious atheists.


It’s good to note the distinction between being a theist and being religious. That I can argue why theism over atheism, without arguing for why christianity (or whatever particular religion I subscribe too). You could strip a variety of my religious beliefs, in fact even a variety of particular theistic beliefs I hold, but I'd still be a theist of some sort. I would be a Spinoza-esque theist, or a deist, long before an atheist. In fact the points I raised here as to why I believe God exists, could just as easily apply to a wide variety of forms of theism, including deism.

Quote:Thanks for making my point for me. I don't know how this helps you. Intuitive <> true. We agree on that.


The point I was making, and the point you were trying to make with it, are two different things. Mines had nothing to do with the veracity of theism. Just point out the intuitive nature of it, regardless of whether it’s true or not.

I can hold that theism is intuitive and true, but agree that just because it’s intuitive doesn’t mean it is true.

Quote:Just because theists make up a world or worldview doesn't mean I need to.

You don’t need to do anything. You’re free to believe as you wish.

Quote:and it's all I need to see that it is far better explained by an absent, indifferent, or non-existent deity than by a personal interventionist deity.

Indifferent, non-personal, created the world and has been absent ever since, would still be form of theism, unlike a belief that God does not exist. It would be the difference between believing you have a shitty father/a father that left you at birth/absent father, and believing you have no biological father. Consider the the view that God exists here akin to the view that you have a biological father, and not akin to arguing in regards to his character, or relationship to us, or whether or not he cares about our lives at all.

Quote:Natural selection doesn't require a deity or uncaused first cause. It makes no special pleading for self-awareness requiring those things either.

Natural selection doesn’t require any of our features to be possible. It’s the fact that matter has the properties to produce conscious self-aware creatures, when arranged in a particular way that makes it possible. Natural selection is just one of the features that ensured that given enough time and space, that such an arrangement would come into fruition. Matter nor DNA need to have any of these properties. A universe absent of these properties is entirely conceivable, a DNA like string absent of these properties is entirely conceivable, that no matter how it is arranged can’t produce self-aware creatures, perhaps solely an endless variety of bacteria like entities evolved to occupy a variety of ecological niches. Instead we have this rather than that, this something rather than that nothing.

Quote:Perhaps you could explain how this is anything other than an argument from incredulity.


Incredulity would require me to be unwilling or unable to believe something. Yet there is no alternative belief here on the table, that I’m unwilling to accept, it’s only a “lack of belief” that you have to offer. It’s not as if you have some alternative belief, that I’m fighting tooth and nail to resists. It’s like claiming that someone refused to eat dessert, when dessert has never been offered to him. Or claiming that I refused to go on a date with you, when you never asked me out on a date.

Quote:Not affording belief to deities doesn't obligate me to "come up with" an alternative belief-system or philosophy beyond what

Well that’s our conundrum right. Without coming up with or offering an alternative belief system, than you can’t accuse me of being unwilling or unable to accept it. Without offering an alternative belief-system, then there’s no belief system for me to consider as alternative to my own. But you’re not obligated to come up with one.

Quote:You seem to be arguing that everyone deserves to have a fully grown and curated belief-system presented to them before they decide what's likely to be (un)true and that it's somehow damning that atheism hasn't presented a system that is more appealing over that of any presented by theism.

No, I’m not arguing that. As I said you’re free to do as you wish. I’m merely saying that I’m a theist, because there doesn’t seem to be any alternative atheistic system that’s even remotely appealing. In fact it’s rarely that ones ever even offered.

Quote:However the real situation is that a belief system that is more likely to be true would not necessarily be more appealing, particularly to someone already dependent on comforting lies.

Truth can be appealing. And perhaps for some us, our beliefs have to be true in order to be appealing, that truth above anything is the highest of values, more so than comfort or happiness. If the truth weren’t appealing, not sure why any of us would be interested in seeking it.

Quote:'m sorry that the burden of proof lies with the one making the positive claim. And I'm sorry that many atheists don't make positive claims where theists do.

I don’t dispute that. I pointed it out, for the sake of highlighting the fact that many atheists don’t tend to make alternative positive claims, that it’s just another example of their lack of belief.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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13-01-2017, 12:39 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(12-01-2017 11:48 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Perhaps you could explain how this is anything other than an argument from incredulity.
Incredulity would require me to be unwilling or unable to believe something. Yet there is no alternative belief here on the table, that I’m unwilling to accept, it’s only a “lack of belief” that you have to offer. It’s not as if you have some alternative belief, that I’m fighting tooth and nail to resists. It’s like claiming that someone refused to eat dessert, when dessert has never been offered to him. Or claiming that I refused to go on a date with you, when you never asked me out on a date.

You fucking dumbass. Facepalm

You are arguing that it's not 'incredulity' because you're not picking between A and B, there is only A to consider. You don't even realize that NOT A is an option, just as NOT B is. It is not as simple as black or white. The rejection of a premise because it lacks sufficient evidence can be done without having to propose a competing and opposite alternative, dipshit.

This is why you'll never be a skeptic.

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13-01-2017, 02:02 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-01-2017 12:39 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  This is why you'll never be a skeptic.

Tommy's a meta-skeptic. He's skeptical about skepticism. Rolleyes

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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13-01-2017, 02:55 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-01-2017 02:02 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(13-01-2017 12:39 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  This is why you'll never be a skeptic.

Tommy's a meta-skeptic. He's skeptical about skepticism. Rolleyes

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13-01-2017, 07:04 AM
Why should a deity exist?
true scotsman Wrote:Most brands of theism hold that God is conscious? Does your particular brand hold this? By conscious I mean aware of any objects distinct from itself.

I think most brands of theism would be weary of saying that an unchanging God, is conscious in the way human beings are conscious.

But if all you mean by consciousness here, is an awareness or other objects besides itself, sure. I don't see a problem with that.



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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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13-01-2017, 07:09 AM
Why should a deity exist?
(13-01-2017 12:39 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(12-01-2017 11:48 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Incredulity would require me to be unwilling or unable to believe something. Yet there is no alternative belief here on the table, that I’m unwilling to accept, it’s only a “lack of belief” that you have to offer. It’s not as if you have some alternative belief, that I’m fighting tooth and nail to resists. It’s like claiming that someone refused to eat dessert, when dessert has never been offered to him. Or claiming that I refused to go on a date with you, when you never asked me out on a date.

You fucking dumbass. Facepalm

You are arguing that it's not 'incredulity' because you're not picking between A and B, there is only A to consider. You don't even realize that NOT A is an option, just as NOT B is. It is not as simple as black or white. The rejection of a premise because it lacks sufficient evidence can be done without having to propose a competing and opposite alternative, dipshit.

This is why you'll never be a skeptic.


in·cre·du·li·ty
ˌinkrəˈd(y)o͞olədē/
noun
the state of being unwilling or unable to believe something.


Your not A and not B, is not a belief, or "believing something". It's a lack of belief, it's believing nothing.

Incredulity by definition does not mean a person's unwillingness or inability to believe in nothing.





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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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13-01-2017, 07:17 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-01-2017 07:09 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(13-01-2017 12:39 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  You fucking dumbass. Facepalm

You are arguing that it's not 'incredulity' because you're not picking between A and B, there is only A to consider. You don't even realize that NOT A is an option, just as NOT B is. It is not as simple as black or white. The rejection of a premise because it lacks sufficient evidence can be done without having to propose a competing and opposite alternative, dipshit.

This is why you'll never be a skeptic.


in·cre·du·li·ty
ˌinkrəˈd(y)o͞olədē/
noun
the state of being unwilling or unable to believe something.


Your not A and not B, is not a belief, or "believing something". It's a lack of belief, it's believing nothing.

Incredulity by definition does not mean a person's unwillingness or inability to believe in nothing.





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Yo dipshit. If you lack the ability to weight A and NOT A against one another, you are incredulous. You are by definition 'unwilling or unable to believe' that A is NOT TRUE.

PROTIP: That makes you incredulous.


You post a definition, and yet you don't even understand it. You have to be one of the biggest fools here. Bravo.

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13-01-2017, 07:27 AM
Why should a deity exist?
(13-01-2017 07:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Yo dipshit. If you lack the ability to weight A and NOT A against one another, you are incredulous. You are by definition 'unwilling or unable to believe' that A is NOT TRUE.

Except here lack of belief, agnostic would be position of not being being able to believe it's not true or not false, to be on the fence about it.

Regardless:

I'm not unable or not unwilling to believe A is not true.

Believing A is true, doesn't indicate that youre unwilling or unable to believe it's not true.

If you think in my case I am, then prove it. Why should I not believe A?







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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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13-01-2017, 07:28 AM
RE: Why should a deity exist?
(13-01-2017 07:09 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Your not A and not B, is not a belief, or "believing something". It's a lack of belief, it's believing nothing.

It would be a lack of belief in regards to the proposed belief, not "believing in nothing".

Once again you illustrate your fundamental dishonesty.

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