Why we must fight religious indoctrination, example #3,481,284
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29-07-2015, 09:13 AM
RE: Why we must fight religious indoctrination, example #3,481,284
(29-07-2015 09:08 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 06:15 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  That's one helluva slippery slope argument.

If I eat this dinner, what is to stop me from eating the plate, and then the whole table?

Also, it seems like one helluva non sequitur. How, exactly, are a disbelief in gods related to wanting a strong government that controls the means of production? I know plenty of atheist libertarians.
If an atheist(like Lenin) desires to build a society without religion he has to do it by force. Without shedding of blood it is not possible.
So, if atheists do not use force they are doomed to live in the society with religious freedom. Without bloody revolution all you can do is to dream about.

Atheist said: religion is opium for the people. how can you take away this opium from the people? By force. By bloody force.

That was Marx and here is the quote.


"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
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29-07-2015, 09:16 AM
RE: Why we must fight religious indoctrination, example #3,481,284
(29-07-2015 09:07 AM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  Turn about is fair play. You christians did just that with the Crusades - killed all those who didn't believe your utopia.

But I'm sure you'll use your willful ignorance to avoid having to think about that.
Oh, I don't mind to talk about. We are all humans. We kill each other if we become fanatics. I am afraid of Christian fanatics. I am afraid of Muslim fanatics.
I am afraid of Atheist fanatics who want their utopia - society without religion.
Your fight that you have now will bring you nowhere. You have to kill all those who do not believe your utopia. And if you win welcome to the USSR.
But why the communism is the only utopia atheists have to use?
The answer is this: that they may find lots of idiots/ignorant people who will say: oh, atheists promise us great and noble things. We will fight their fight, we will participate in the Revolution.
Kind of like Black Lives Matter. Lie to ignorant people and you have your Revolution.
You have burned cities and lost businesses.

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29-07-2015, 09:21 AM (This post was last modified: 29-07-2015 09:26 AM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Why we must fight religious indoctrination, example #3,481,284
(29-07-2015 09:16 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 09:07 AM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  Turn about is fair play. You christians did just that with the Crusades - killed all those who didn't believe your utopia.

But I'm sure you'll use your willful ignorance to avoid having to think about that.
Oh, I don't mind to talk about. We are all humans. We kill each other if we become fanatics. I am afraid of Christian fanatics. I am afraid of Muslim fanatics.
I am afraid of Atheist fanatics who want their utopia - society without religion.
Your fight that you have now will bring you nowhere. You have to kill all those who do not believe your utopia. And if you win welcome to the USSR.
But why the communism is the only utopia atheists have to use?
The answer is this: that they may find lots of idiots/ignorant people who will say: oh, atheists promise us great and noble things. We will fight their fight, we will participate in the Revolution.
Kind of like Black Lives Matter. Lie to ignorant people and you have your Revolution.
You have burned cities and lost businesses.

What is the rational means of why you fear this? Do you have rational logical based reasons for why you think this is something many people want in this era and that it is what many atheists want in the manner of which you speak? Where are these lingerings of prosperity promises and revolutions that you fear?

The revolutions of changing of the old guard and killing masses of people is not a unique trait to atheistic revolutions. It's a trait of "radical revolution"(In a historical/sociological means of the term which implies a change from the status quo as sometimes revolutions are more attempts to keep things as they were and are then categorized differently, as "conservative revolutions") This attempted revolution method is the same and has been the same historically atheist/religious/militaristic or not. It's a common trend and the Soviet's event isn't anything significantly different. To single out the atheism is a really bad cause and effect fallacy being made or taking one factor out of the bunches of factors and somehow associating that one as the evil one.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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29-07-2015, 09:44 AM
RE: Why we must fight religious indoctrination, example #3,481,284
(29-07-2015 09:21 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  To single out the atheism is a really bad cause and effect fallacy being made or taking one factor out of the bunches of factors and somehow associating that one as the evil one.
I do not single out atheism.
I agree that religious fanatics kill people because they want power.
But atheists also kill people if they want power and if people(masses) do not agree with their conclusion that there are no gods.
Believers and atheists are not evil people. But believers and atheists who want to have all the power will have to kill people who disagree with them.
So, when an atheist tells me that religions are evil because they make some followers to kill people I say that some atheists are not different.

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29-07-2015, 09:54 AM
RE: Why we must fight religious indoctrination, example #3,481,284
(29-07-2015 09:44 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 09:21 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  To single out the atheism is a really bad cause and effect fallacy being made or taking one factor out of the bunches of factors and somehow associating that one as the evil one.
I do not single out atheism.
I agree that religious fanatics kill people because they want power.
But atheists also kill people if they want power and if people(masses) do not agree with their conclusion that there are no gods.
Believers and atheists are not evil people. But believers and atheists who want to have all the power will have to kill people who disagree with them.
So, when an atheist tells me that religions are evil because they make some followers to kill people I say that some atheists are not different.

But as you are pointing out, it's the desire for power or some political motivation that is making the people go out and kill people. It's that, not the traits of atheism.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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29-07-2015, 10:01 AM
RE: Why we must fight religious indoctrination, example #3,481,284
(29-07-2015 09:08 AM)Alla Wrote:  If an atheist(like Lenin) desires to build a society without religion he has to do it by force. Without shedding of blood it is not possible.
So, if atheists do not use force they are doomed to live in the society with religious freedom. Without bloody revolution all you can do is to dream about.

Atheist said: religion is opium for the people. how can you take away this opium from the people? By force. By bloody force.

It's noteworthy that the largest two religions in the world (Christianity and Islam) got to be the size they are by bloody conquest, too.

So, apparently the take home message is: it is possible to violently force your beliefs on other people, and if done in large numbers, it can influence an entire population.

Two corollaries:
1) This doesn't make it a good thing.
2) This most certainly isn't limited to atheism. In fact, it has historically mostly been a theistic thing.
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29-07-2015, 11:05 AM
RE: Why we must fight religious indoctrination, example #3,481,284
If you get can past the ridiculous logic of atheism leading to communism, he has a point that on the surface seems reasonable. The point being that the historical violence of religious people is a weak argument against the validity of religious indoctrination. Basically, people will kill each other. Take religion away and they will find another reason to kill each other.

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29-07-2015, 12:04 PM
RE: Why we must fight religious indoctrination, example #3,481,284
Religious indoctrination sets the stage for imposing an ideology and controling a population.

Religious indoctrination itself, is a method of seeking power.
***
***

Song taught to my neighborhood grade school children ...

Onward Christian soldiers, marching as to war
With the cross of Jesus going on before
Onward then, ye people, join our happy throng
Blend with ours your voices in a triumph song

Christ, the Royal Master, leads against the foe
Forward into battle, see His banners go, oh

Onward Christian soldiers, marching as to war
With the cross of Jesus going on before
Crowns and thrones may perish, kingdoms rise and wane
But the cross of Jesus constant will remain

Marching as to war
(Marching as to war)
Oh, we're marching as to war
(Marching as to war)

***
***

Catchy tune. Pretty traditional - 19th century hymn. Still taught today.
Wonder what Muslim kiddies are singing, these days.

Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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29-07-2015, 12:15 PM
RE: Why we must fight religious indoctrination, example #3,481,284
(29-07-2015 09:54 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  But as you are pointing out, it's the desire for power or some political motivation that is making the people go out and kill people. It's that, not the traits of atheism.
It is true. Atheism doesn't teach to kill people. Atheism doesn't teach anything. Some religions in contrast do teach to kill people. As someone said on this forum: atheism is just simple conclusion that there are no Gods.
But if atheists want to build society without religion and I know they do want this they have to have power to kill/destroy all those who disagree with them.
That is why I said that there is only one way for atheists to build this kind of society - through promises of Utopia - Communism.

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29-07-2015, 12:19 PM
RE: Why we must fight religious indoctrination, example #3,481,284
(29-07-2015 12:15 PM)Alla Wrote:  But if atheists want to build society without religion and I know they do want this they have to have power to kill/destroy all those who disagree with them.
That is why I said that there is only one way for atheists to build this kind of society - through promises of Utopia - Communism.

But if atheists Christians want to build society without non-Christian religion and I know they do want this they have to have power to kill/destroy all those who disagree with them.
That is why I said that there is only one way for atheists Christians to build this kind of society - through promises of Utopia - Communism Dominionism.

See? Nothing you're saying pertains specifically to atheists; you're talking about totalitarian extremists, and then conveniently leaving out theists when talking about it. I've already said it once, and I'll repeat it: the two world's largest religions (Christianity and Islam) got as large as they have by doing exactly what you're talking about.

Stop talking about this like it's somehow an atheist thing. It's a totalitarian fascist thing.
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