Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
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27-10-2013, 09:28 PM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
(27-10-2013 08:05 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  I'll admit, I'm too lazy to peruse this website at the moment, but it is on the list of things I really want to pour over soon, and this thread reminded me of it. Anyone interested, here is the link. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

Had a look, have to admit I've come across better arguments. For one, it defines for itself the God that it argues against. And if you're going to say that you're disproving the existence of the Christian, Jewish and Islamic God you can't confine your arguments to the Biblical scriptures. And what about other gods from different religions? And I never knew 'let's take a surface reading of a text as the central premise for my argument' was what passed as a logical argument these days.

As to the prayer itself. I'll admit some of the 'realisations' sections are things people struggle with, but I wonder whether the absence (in the prayer's eyes) is a visible result to prayer equates to unanswered prayer. I don't know. The site just comes off as a bit childish to me.

Yes, I know, lots of half-said things, but am in a rush so just thought I'd put my impressions up and ask anyone who gets a chance to visit the site- do you find any of the arguments reasonable?
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27-10-2013, 11:01 PM (This post was last modified: 27-10-2013 11:08 PM by Atheist_pilgrim.)
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
This passage has bugged me in this regard:

(27) And he said, Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my fathers house (28) for I have five brothers in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment. (29) But Abraham said, They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them. (30) But he said, No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent! (31) But he said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead. 

Luke 16:27-31 (NASB)

These are the ending verses of a parable told by Christ about a rich man and a beggar. Both die, and the beggar goes to a good afterlife ("Abraham's Bosom") while the rich man goes to a place of torment. There, the rich man begs Abraham to send the beggar back to warn his still-living brothers, but is told that they have the Scriptures, and that not even a resurrected person could convince them of the "truth".

What bothers me about this little tale is that Xians will claim obvious miracles like re-growing limbs would make the existence of a God too obvious in a modern society, thus negating the need for faith. But if their own Bible says that a risen dead person with knowledge of the afterlife isn't enough to bring people to God, then why can't a loving god permit the regeneration of limbs (or burned flesh) if such things still wouldn't give away the man behind the curtain? After all, regeneration of limbs isn't without precedent in nature, so why not let some through? Surely such regrows could be explained away by evil scientists anyway, thus paving the way for god to do some real healings while still remaining hidden enough for the Scriptures to do their saving work!
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27-10-2013, 11:12 PM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
(27-10-2013 09:28 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  if you're going to say that you're disproving the existence of the Christian, Jewish and Islamic God you can't confine your arguments to the Biblical scriptures.

Shocking

Okay, haven't read the Quran, but I gots a good idea of what's in it.

As to the christian and jewish god, I'm pretty sure that biblical scriptures is what we have to go by.

I'd love to hear your "extra-biblical" arguments.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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28-10-2013, 01:42 AM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
Miracle of Calanda....a documented case of amputee being healed
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28-10-2013, 02:06 AM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
(27-10-2013 11:12 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Okay, haven't read the Quran, but I gots a good idea of what's in it.

As to the christian and jewish god, I'm pretty sure that biblical scriptures is what we have to go by.

I'd love to hear your "extra-biblical" arguments.

I think the argument can change depending on which religion you're talking about. For example, on the website linked above, a lot of the argument is based on New Testament scripture of asking God through prayer. So for me the amputee argument is based less on God looking down and saying 'I think I'll heal that person' and more 'why would a loving God deny me when I ask?' So you have to look at what prayer means to different people.

Christians: Jesus came to reconcile God and man, so instead of going through religious leaders, you could have a personal relationship with God, and communicate with Him directly. While this is great, for Christians this can make the problem of suffering- such as this case- and evil harder to deal with, and someting a lot of Christians have written on over the years. Some can slip into a mindset that because they could ask something of God, they should get it because, hey, God's love right? I saw a bit of that in the website's arguments

Judaism and Islam: Bit of a gap in my knowledge. I'm aware of some of the prayer rituals and that there is a lot of Rabbinic literature apart from the Tanakh but in terms of why you pray and any sort of expectations out of it I would like to know more. I would love to hear from any current/ex- Muslims or Jews on this. If Christianity is the only one of the three where you can actively petition God, then I could consider the whole argument as a criticism of Christian theology but wouldn't see it as something you could point to as showing God to be imaginary.
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28-10-2013, 02:43 AM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
(28-10-2013 01:42 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Miracle of Calanda....a documented case of amputee being healed

A skeptical review of the miracle of Calanda...

Accessible from that same wikipedia article btw.

Anyway even if I grant you the miracle:
a. How d'ya know God dunnit ?
b. One guy in ~ 2500 years of recorded history ? Jeez God's a stingy bastard.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-10-2013, 02:45 AM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
I am an ex-muslim. I even have a very good quran at home, as any good atheist does Wink I can simply look up any topic I want (e.g. creation of the world) and read what it has to say about it in whichever passage it is talking about it.

Just a short comment on evenheathen saying he has a pretty good idea what it says in the quran. No, you don't. Because you are living in a christian country you may have fallen victim to that countries denouncing propaganda against other cultures or religions. Politicians are very good in using religion to motivate people to start wars.

In Islam people also say "thank god" and appeal to god in their prayers. There are varying degrees of doing so, but this argument about why doesn't god heal amputees applies to Islam as well.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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28-10-2013, 02:48 AM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
(28-10-2013 02:06 AM)Yasmin Wrote:  Some can slip into a mindset that because they could ask something of God, they should get it because, hey, God's love right?

Ask and it shall be given you - ring a bell ?

But it's now 'ask and maybe it'll be given you in a manner consistent entirely with random chance but we'll just pretend it's because God knows it'd be bad for you' or some other such lame excuse.

*If your God really loves people in a way that humans understand love, then why would he not heal someone if he had the power* ?

Either the word love does not apply or he's an impotent deity, IMO.

Well actually, I think he not there so that's option 3.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-10-2013, 05:28 AM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
(27-10-2013 09:35 AM)Teen-skeptic-go! Wrote:  It's won't, not wont.

Really? You need to criticize someone's typos? Really? Is that helpful to the conversation, or just a dick move? I say dick move if you were able to decipher what he was trying to say.
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28-10-2013, 06:11 AM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
(28-10-2013 01:42 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Miracle of Calanda....a documented case of amputee being healed

Wikipedia Wrote:Author Brian Dunning has done extensive research and notes that "there is no documentation or witness accounts confirming his leg was ever gone." He presents a non-miraculous explanation that Pellicer's leg did not develop gangrene during the five days at the hospital at Valencia. He spent the next 50 days convalescing, during which he was unable to work. He turned to begging, and discovered that having a broken leg was a boon. After his leg had mended, he decided that if a broken leg helped, a missing leg would be better. Traveling to Zaragoza, he bound his right foreleg up behind his thigh and for two years played the part of an amputee beggar. Later, back at his parents home in Calanda, forced to sleep in a different bed, his ruse was discovered. The story of the miracle was a way to save face. Dunning notes "that no evidence exists that his leg was ever amputated — or that he was even treated at all — at the hospital in Zaragoza other than his own word. He named three doctors there, but for some reason there is no record of their having been interviewed by either the delegation or the trial." That the hole in the cemetery of the hospital of Zaragoza in which the leg had been buried was found empty is consistent with the leg never having been amputated.

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