Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
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28-10-2013, 11:21 AM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
(28-10-2013 10:42 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-10-2013 10:28 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Even the skeptic who wrote the skeptical article acknowledges the documentation is probably legitimate:

"If we accept that these documents are indeed legitimate, and I think we can, is there any wiggle room left? Do the documents consist of proof that a miraculous restoration of an amputated limb occurred?"

He then goes on to just hand wave it away though by basically saying, "Its not proof cause all those people who knew him with one leg...could have been fooled". Now your just doing the same thing he is but on a more egregious scale. Don't like something....just handwave it away.....that's the Chas way.

Quote:Author Brian Dunning has done extensive research and notes that "there is no documentation or witness accounts confirming his leg was ever gone."

Chas you need to read what Brian Dunning actually said and not what the watered down synopsis the Wikipedia article provides. Morondog provided the link.

"But what about all those witnesses who knew him with one leg? Allow me to offer an alternative version of what might have happened, that requires no miraculous intervention, and is still consistent with all the documentary evidence we have......"

He just hand waves it away. He's as bad YECs. "Fossil aren't evidence the earth is older than 6000 years because allow me to offer an alternative version of what might have happened that is consistent with the bible and the fossil record. God could have put those fossils there to test our faith".

You might not like cause it contradicts your world veiw, but in the historical record there is a documented case of an amputee being healed. Now I am not saying you have to believe that case. I am saying you shouldn't be claiming there is no documented cases of Amputees ever being healed by God.
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28-10-2013, 11:43 AM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
(28-10-2013 11:21 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(28-10-2013 10:42 AM)Chas Wrote:  

Chas you need to read what Brian Dunning actually said and not what the watered down synopsis the Wikipedia article provides. Morondog provided the link.

"But what about all those witnesses who knew him with one leg? Allow me to offer an alternative version of what might have happened, that requires no miraculous intervention, and is still consistent with all the documentary evidence we have......"

He just hand waves it away. He's as bad YECs. "Fossil aren't evidence the earth is older than 6000 years because allow me to offer an alternative version of what might have happened that is consistent with the bible and the fossil record. God could have put those fossils there to test our faith".

You might not like cause it contradicts your world veiw, but in the historical record there is a documented case of an amputee being healed. Now I am not saying you have to believe that case. I am saying you shouldn't be claiming there is no documented cases of Amputees ever being healed by God.

He said there is no evidence for the amputation, then he hypothesizes an explanation for the story.

No evidence for the amputation.

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28-10-2013, 11:46 AM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
(28-10-2013 11:21 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(28-10-2013 10:42 AM)Chas Wrote:  

Chas you need to read what Brian Dunning actually said and not what the watered down synopsis the Wikipedia article provides. Morondog provided the link.

"But what about all those witnesses who knew him with one leg? Allow me to offer an alternative version of what might have happened, that requires no miraculous intervention, and is still consistent with all the documentary evidence we have......"

He just hand waves it away. He's as bad YECs. "Fossil aren't evidence the earth is older than 6000 years because allow me to offer an alternative version of what might have happened that is consistent with the bible and the fossil record. God could have put those fossils there to test our faith".

You might not like cause it contradicts your world veiw, but in the historical record there is a documented case of an amputee being healed. Now I am not saying you have to believe that case. I am saying you shouldn't be claiming there is no documented cases of Amputees ever being healed by God.

There are several other issues with this account that causes the Author to propose an alternate hypothesis. Firstly Gangrene does not behave the way it is described in the account. Secondly there is no record of the Doctors that supposedly saw to him at the second hospital. Thirdly there is a bit of a problem with the story that the first hospital was unable to help him and then had him walk on a broken leg on a journey that supposedly took him almost 2 months to complete.

All of that adds up to it being a hoax not a documented case (mainly because the documentation leaves much to be desired) This is not a world view problem but one of bad assumptions on those who wish to put this forward as a bonafide miracle.

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28-10-2013, 11:48 AM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
(28-10-2013 11:43 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-10-2013 11:21 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Chas you need to read what Brian Dunning actually said and not what the watered down synopsis the Wikipedia article provides. Morondog provided the link.

"But what about all those witnesses who knew him with one leg? Allow me to offer an alternative version of what might have happened, that requires no miraculous intervention, and is still consistent with all the documentary evidence we have......"

He just hand waves it away. He's as bad YECs. "Fossil aren't evidence the earth is older than 6000 years because allow me to offer an alternative version of what might have happened that is consistent with the bible and the fossil record. God could have put those fossils there to test our faith".

You might not like cause it contradicts your world veiw, but in the historical record there is a documented case of an amputee being healed. Now I am not saying you have to believe that case. I am saying you shouldn't be claiming there is no documented cases of Amputees ever being healed by God.

He said there is no evidence for the amputation, then he hypothesizes an explanation for the story.

No evidence for the amputation.

Read what Dunning actually says please. He hypothesizes an explanation for "all those witnesses who knew him with one leg". What you and he are doing is called hand waving away what you don't want to believe.
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28-10-2013, 12:11 PM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
(28-10-2013 11:48 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Read what Dunning actually says please. He hypothesizes an explanation for "all those witnesses who knew him with one leg". What you and he are doing is called hand waving away what you don't want to believe.

What you are doing is called handwaving away what you want to believe.

"Why does God not heal amputees?"
"Well actually he did this one single time under poorly attested circumstances. Checkmate, atheists!"

Uh, yeah. Right.

The fact that limbs are not known to regrow is a rather large piece of evidence to the contrary. So there's that. An extraordinary claim requries extraordinary evidence. This evidence is far from extraordinary.

Even if we suspend our disbelief entirely and accept the claim at face value, one cannot then conclude God did it. That does not follow.

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28-10-2013, 12:54 PM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
(28-10-2013 12:11 PM)cjlr Wrote:  What you are doing is called handwaving away what you want to believe.

"Why does God not heal amputees?"
"Well actually he did this one single time under poorly attested circumstances. Checkmate, atheists!"

Uh, yeah. Right.

The fact that limbs are not known to regrow is a rather large piece of evidence to the contrary. So there's that. An extraordinary claim requries extraordinary evidence. This evidence is far from extraordinary.

I'm not asking you to accept the claim. I don't accept the claim myself. What I am asking is for atheists to stop claiming there isn't any documented cases of God healing amputees....cause there is at least one.

Quote:Even if we suspend our disbelief entirely and accept the claim at face value, one cannot then conclude God did it. That does not follow

Could have been aliens right? Could have been just a random fluctuation(ala Boltzmann Brain) of the chaotic state of things at the quantum level right? You can never conclude that "God did it" or anything. I think your being nitty here. This is close enough to what atheists are "looking for" when they ask if there any documented cases of God healing amputees. This one exists and now your looking for reasons to pretend it doesn't.

When Dunning has to craft a story to explain away documentation that he himself admits exists....that's pretty sad.
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28-10-2013, 12:57 PM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
HJ - If you... ya know... *read what he actually said* then you get this, at the end of the article:

Quote:We can't say that the Miracle of Calanda is not genuine, and we can't prove that Miguel Juan Pellicer's leg was not miraculously restored. But we can say that the evidence we have falls short, and is perfectly consistent with no miracle having taken place.

So ya know, he's not saying that he's proved anything, he's just given us some more background for making up our own minds. *You're free to choose* what you believe, old boy. God magically healed this one beggar in however many centuries, then fucked off into that good night never to be heard from again... or the said beggar lucked out hugely when his little scam got rumbled.

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28-10-2013, 12:59 PM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
(28-10-2013 11:21 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I am saying you shouldn't be claiming there is no documented cases of Amputees ever being healed by God.

Chas has every right to claim that, because it's true. Even if this man actually did regenerate a missing limb, at no point does the cause of which indicate any supernatural entity.
If you put an amputee in front of thousands of eyes witnesses and watched his leg magically regrow before everyone's eyes, that would not be proof that your god did it. It's not proof of any god.
A simple event, no matter how miraculous it may seem, is not evidence of the supernatural.

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28-10-2013, 01:06 PM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
(28-10-2013 12:54 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I'm not asking you to accept the claim. I don't accept the claim myself. What I am asking is for atheists to stop claiming there isn't any documented cases of God healing amputees....cause there is at least one.

Right.

(28-10-2013 12:54 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I don't accept the claim myself.

Er...

(28-10-2013 12:54 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Could have been aliens right?

Yes. Absent extraordinary evidence to that effect (which would necessarily require several extraordinary precedents - aliens exist, aliens interact with us, aliens restrict their interaction to this one guy one time).

(28-10-2013 12:54 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Could have been just a random fluctuation(ala Boltzmann Brain) of the chaotic state of things at the quantum level right?

... Sure.

(28-10-2013 12:54 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  You can never conclude that "God did it" or anything.

Indeed. One can't. So, uh, the part where you earlier said:
(28-10-2013 12:54 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  What I am asking is for atheists to stop claiming there isn't any documented cases of God healing amputees....cause there is at least one.
is... something you changed your mind on in the intervening paragraph?

(28-10-2013 12:54 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  This is close enough to what atheists are "looking for" when they ask if there any documented cases of God healing amputees. This one exists and now your looking for reasons to pretend it doesn't.
(28-10-2013 12:54 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I don't accept the claim myself.
(28-10-2013 12:54 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  You can never conclude that "God did it" or anything.

Are you even trying? At no point here have you been coherent.

The only reliably known elements are what was claimed. There are several possible explanations. One is incredibly more likely than the others. Deal with it.

(28-10-2013 12:54 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  When Dunning has to craft a story to explain away documentation that he himself admits exists....that's pretty sad.

He admits that the story exists. I know lots of stories that aren't true. I rather suspect that you do too.

People have convincingly faked missing limbs (for dodging military service, for insurance fraud, for purely personal reasons) on many occasions. This has been well documented.

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28-10-2013, 01:15 PM (This post was last modified: 28-10-2013 01:28 PM by Jeffasaurus.)
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
(28-10-2013 12:54 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(28-10-2013 12:11 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Even if we suspend our disbelief entirely and accept the claim at face value, one cannot then conclude God did it. That does not follow

Could have been aliens right? Could have been just a random fluctuation(ala Boltzmann Brain) of the chaotic state of things at the quantum level right? You can never conclude that "God did it" or anything. I think your being nitty here. This is close enough to what atheists are "looking for" when they ask if there any documented cases of God healing amputees. This one exists and now your looking for reasons to pretend it doesn't.

It could also be nanobots, or demons, or voodoo magic, or...

"Hey, here's some kind of miracle. The god that I believe in must have done it; there's no other reasonable explanation."

As critical thinkers, we like to follow evidence to their logical conclusions. There's no nitpicking here. There's just no evidence to even remotely suggest that your god healed an amputee, or even exists at all.

When miracles (read: events that are not understood) happen, every theist is always quick to give credit to their god. Then, evidence is presented to explain it occurring naturally, but the blindly faithful ignore the evidence and continue to claim proof of their god.

Of course, this same credit doesn't happen when bad events do.

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