Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
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28-10-2013, 01:20 PM (This post was last modified: 28-10-2013 01:30 PM by Jeffasaurus.)
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
(28-10-2013 12:54 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(28-10-2013 12:11 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Even if we suspend our disbelief entirely and accept the claim at face value, one cannot then conclude God did it. That does not follow

Could have been aliens right? Could have been just a random fluctuation(ala Boltzmann Brain) of the chaotic state of things at the quantum level right? You can never conclude that "God did it" or anything. I think your being nitty here. This is close enough to what atheists are "looking for" when they ask if there any documented cases of God healing amputees. This one exists and now your looking for reasons to pretend it doesn't.


It could also be nanobots, or demons, or voodoo magic, or...

"Hey, here's some kind of miracle. The god that I believe in must have done it; there's no other reasonable explanation."

As critical thinkers, we like to follow evidence to their logical conclusions. There's no nitpicking here. There's just no evidence to even remotely suggest that your god healed an amputee, or even exists at all.

When miracles (read: events that are not understood) happen, every theist is always quick to give credit to their god. Then, evidence is presented to explain it occurring naturally, but the blindly faithful ignore the evidence and continue to claim proof of their god.

Of course, this same credit doesn't happen when bad events do.

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29-10-2013, 01:23 AM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
(28-10-2013 01:06 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(28-10-2013 12:54 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  When Dunning has to craft a story to explain away documentation that he himself admits exists....that's pretty sad.

He admits that the story exists. I know lots of stories that aren't true. I rather suspect that you do too.

People have convincingly faked missing limbs (for dodging military service, for insurance fraud, for purely personal reasons) on many occasions. This has been well documented.

I think I know where you are going wrong. You are conflating documentation of an event with unambiguous proof that event occurred. The OP asked for documented evidence....not proof. My claim is a documented case exists. I'm not asking you to believe it, I'm asking you to stop pretending there aren't any documented cases....cause there are.

Also Dunning admits more than a story existing. He admits there is a documented case of God healing an amputee. He just argues that it doesn't meet his standard of proof.
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29-10-2013, 01:26 AM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
It's a documented case of something, it is *not* a documented case of *God* doing anything. Stop playing word games.

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29-10-2013, 08:13 AM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
(29-10-2013 01:23 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I think I know where you are going wrong. You are conflating documentation of an event with unambiguous proof that event occurred. The OP asked for documented evidence....not proof. My claim is a documented case exists. I'm not asking you to believe it, I'm asking you to stop pretending there aren't any documented cases....cause there are.

There's one that you managed to find, and the "documentation" is so anemic that even you don't think it's real.

Yeah. That's, uh, real convincing there, dude.

"Documented evidence", eh? You... do know that evidence is defined as "that which contributes to proof or disproof of a claim", yes?

(29-10-2013 01:23 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Also Dunning admits more than a story existing.

Oh? Well, such as?

(29-10-2013 01:23 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  He admits there is a documented case of God healing an amputee. He just argues that it doesn't meet his standard of proof.

Oh. So, what you're saying is, he admits the story exists.

Your posts in this thread are extraordinarily incoherent.

The topic is, "why does prayer not heal amputations?"
Your reply is, "there is an obscure and unreliable case where it was claimed to."
Our response is, "that's not convincing."
Your response is, "actually, I don't believe it either."
My response then is, "so fucking what was bringing it up supposed to accomplish?"

I'm fairly sure you're aware of this, but people often believe things that are not adequately supported if not demonstrably untrue. That they believe is not meaningful.

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30-10-2013, 02:01 AM (This post was last modified: 30-10-2013 02:08 AM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
(29-10-2013 08:13 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Oh. So, what you're saying is, he admits the story exists.

Your posts in this thread are extraordinarily incoherent.

The topic is, "why does prayer not heal amputations?"
Your reply is, "there is an obscure and unreliable case where it was claimed to."
Our response is, "that's not convincing."
Your response is, "actually, I don't believe it either."
My response then is, "so fucking what was bringing it up supposed to accomplish?"

I'm fairly sure you're aware of this, but people often believe things that are not adequately supported if not demonstrably untrue. That they believe is not meaningful.

My posts are perfectly coherent. It is your reading comprehension skills that are bad. Go back an re-read the original post of this thread and then the rest of this thread. The creator of this thread asked his m8 "why God doesn't heal amputees" The OP then claimed there are no documented cases thereof.

Had the OP really asked, "why does prayer not heal amputations"(this was the question he posed to his m8 not us) appropriate responses from atheists would be, "because He doesn't exists" and theists(like his m8) might be something like, "God created ex nihilo only once and restoring amputated limbs would require Him to create ex nihilo again"...or some other bs like that. The title question of the thread isn't really to topic. It clear the OP was asking about documented sources of healing and laughing that the best his M8 could come up with was this Wigglesworth fellow. Its pathetic that I have to spoon feed the OP to you....your an educated man and should be able to comprehend this yourself.

I come in, comprehending that the OP is asking what evidence people like his M8 can hang their hats on that God does heal amputees. I provide the case of the Miracle of Calanda.

Now you call the evidence scant and unconvincing, unreliable, obscure(some of the documentation are government and hospital records....and as far as events of the time goes...this one actually has lots of documentation). The fact is the documentation is sufficient to show that people knew this man having one leg, and then later knew him having two legs. Dunning doesn't dispute this instead he concocts a version in which the man fools everyone. I agree with Dunning, but I acknowledge that my criticism of the of evidence amounts to hand waving it away with my own personal ideals of what really happened. I shouldn't expect a believer to buy into my handwaving.

The documentation of a people knowing this man with one leg and then later knowing him with two exists, further we have documentation that those people believed God healed this amputee. Dunning admits the documentation exists, Dunning admits he can't disprove the documentation, now why should a believer believe Dunning's version which isn't documented but rather just concocted to support his own world view?

If your a believer who believes God has healed amputees, this case is pretty good evidence of your belief. If your not a believer, its easy to explain why people knew this man with one leg and then later knew him with two. All that is required is believing....as a matter of faith....that this man was a scammer.
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30-10-2013, 04:10 AM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
As a matter of faith? A claim is being made here. It requires no faith to reject poorly evidenced claims.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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30-10-2013, 07:26 AM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
Atheist answer: 'Cause there ain't no god. Sillies. Tongue

Prophet answer: That ain't the point. The purpose of prayer is to gain a sense of familiarity with the divine. Faith healing is a tool to heal the spirit not the body. Tongue

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30-10-2013, 10:28 AM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
(30-10-2013 02:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The creator of this thread asked his m8 "why God doesn't heal amputees" The OP then claimed there are no documented cases thereof.

Yes. Indeed.

Implicit in his statement was that the documentation be compelling - you know, such as might convince people who didn't already believe it? - which you have disingenuously decided to ignore.

I have documented cases of extraterrestrials visiting Earth. Only your ideological handwaving leads you to discount the evidence.

(30-10-2013 02:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Had the OP really asked, "why does prayer not heal amputations"(this was the question he posed to his m8 not us) appropriate responses from atheists would be, "because He doesn't exists" and theists(like his m8) might be something like, "God created ex nihilo only once and restoring amputated limbs would require Him to create ex nihilo again"...or some other bs like that.

No, I'm afraid the atheist's answer would be, "God doesn't exist".

Your hypothetical answer suggests either than God cannot (theologically nonviable) or that God will not (theologically nonviable). From a theistic perspective - or from an atheist adopting a theistic perspective - it is a no-go.

Assuming the qualities of God are as usually described, one must conclude that God can and does. This is the conclusion reached by the OP's friend. Therefore, since there is no compelling evidence of such, the OP's friend reasons that the evidence is simply unavailable - for the acts must have occurred.

(30-10-2013 02:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The title question of the thread isn't really to topic. It clear the OP was asking about documented sources of healing and laughing that the best his M8 could come up with was this Wigglesworth fellow. Its pathetic that I have to spoon feed the OP to you....your an educated man and should be able to comprehend this yourself.

Because the position of the OP's acquaintance is absurd. Your miracle is likewise.

One in such a position is forced to accept scant and feeble 'documentation' such as you brought up because it is in accord to the conclusion which must be maintained.

(30-10-2013 02:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I come in, comprehending that the OP is asking what evidence people like his M8 can hang their hats on that God does heal amputees. I provide the case of the Miracle of Calanda.

Yes. And I reiterate - that some people believe a thing is, in itself, meaningless.

We - here - have no reason to accept such a claim a priori, and find it laughable.

You also do not accept it (though of course you admitted this only later).

(30-10-2013 02:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Now you call the evidence scant and unconvincing, unreliable, obscure(some of the documentation are government and hospital records....and as far as events of the time goes...this one actually has lots of documentation). The fact is the documentation is sufficient to show that people knew this man having one leg, and then later knew him having two legs. Dunning doesn't dispute this instead he concocts a version in which the man fools everyone. I agree with Dunning, but I acknowledge that my criticism of the of evidence amounts to hand waving it away with my own personal ideals of what really happened. I shouldn't expect a believer to buy into my handwaving.

That is (ludicrously) presupposing that the documentation is valid and that for ideological reasons you (and we) reject it. Calling your own belief handwaving and suggesting that the contradictory one is more valid is a uniquely nonsensical tack. But, uh, you're free to do so, I guess.

(30-10-2013 02:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The documentation of a people knowing this man with one leg and then later knowing him with two exists, further we have documentation that those people believed God healed this amputee. Dunning admits the documentation exists, Dunning admits he can't disprove the documentation, now why should a believer believe Dunning's version which isn't documented but rather just concocted to support his own world view?

People believe lots of things, Heywood. People believe lots of things that aren't true. It's probably because of aliens.

FYI: ad populam is a fallacy.

(30-10-2013 02:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If your a believer who believes God has healed amputees, this case is pretty good evidence of your belief. If your not a believer, its easy to explain why people knew this man with one leg and then later knew him with two. All that is required is believing....as a matter of faith....that this man was a scammer.

Oh, so we're throwing false equivalence (protip: not all belief and opinion is equal) into the ring too. Good way to close things out!

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30-10-2013, 10:30 AM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
double post
Sad

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30-10-2013, 10:30 AM
RE: Why wont prayer heal amputees ?
(30-10-2013 10:28 AM)cjlr Wrote:  No, I'm afraid the atheist's answer would be, "God doesn't exist".

Well, shucks, guess what I noticed while I was writing my post:
(30-10-2013 07:26 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Atheist answer: 'Cause there ain't no god. Sillies. Tongue

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