Why you choose to not believe?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
29-10-2014, 06:16 PM
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(29-10-2014 05:29 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  
(29-10-2014 05:20 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Alrighty, let's have a bit of fun shall we?


We cannot prove that there is no life after death, nor can we prove that there is no god, but that is not our job. It is the proponents of such beliefs which have to answer the burden.
This burden has not been remotely met, as such the default is to remain sceptical of the existence of an afterlife until it is proven.

However, I would argue that we can discern the likelihood of one of the other, based on the balance of probabilities; which is more probable: a continuation of life post-mortem, for which there are no viable models or mechanisms known, or a total cessation of life upon the time of death?
I wager the latter is more probable; it fits all current evidence and does not require unevidenced assumptions.


Ones feels are totally irrelevant when it comes to reasoning.


No.
If you lack the ability to judge the probability of two opposing views, perhaps you should not be doing such thinking; leave it to the people who are capable of performing simple mental tasks.

Fact of the matter is: happiness is totally irrelevant to truth. I can't just decide that Huldufólk exist simply because I can't absolutely disprove them and it would make me happy.


I dare-say you have failed.

Failed what might I ask? Do you feel superior because you have somehow uncovered some agenda that I'm pushing?

Burden of proof has nothing to do with it, and I think the concept flew right over your head to be honest. I'm not saying => God exists, and if you think otherwise please show me.

Please my friend, if your intentions do be good, provide me a means to mathematically find this probability

We can talk about likelihood, and we can compare what seems more or less likely. In common parlance we use the word probability. Don't conflate that with the mathematical term.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-10-2014, 06:19 PM
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(29-10-2014 06:06 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  
(29-10-2014 05:54 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Switz, I read this multiple times and it just doesn't make rational sense to me. I arrive at the same conclusion Mathilda does, that you are deliberately fooling yourself.

As far as evidence is concerened there isn't any for the supernatural, none, zip, zilch.

So I could say exactly the same thing you just did "If I were to know better through evidence, and then choose to believe despite that evidence I would be deliberately fooling myself" if tomorrow conclusive, scientific evidence showed that something outside the natural universe exists and I ignored it.

You're thinking is bass ackward in my humble opinion.


Okay then that's my fault.

I guess in a way it's my deliberate choice to believe in a scenario. I feel that its rational to do so because I don't feel like we can come up with a probability for/against, and by this choice of belief it makes me happier.

You think that I don't wrestle the logic in my head? the reason I brought it here to this forum is because I would get a strong attack on the reasoning from numerous intelligent individuals. I'm not trying to prove anything to you guys.. I'm trying to test myself

What I don't get is why you need a numerical probability but lets go down that route. The probability of an external agent outside the laws of time and physics are not calculable because so far there have been 0.00 external agents outside the laws of time and physics that have been found to exist.

If you were a deist that would be one thing but being a theist and choosing to believe in happy eternal dualism is self delusional, sorry.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-10-2014, 06:19 PM
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(29-10-2014 05:36 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  
Quote:I can't prove I'm not a brain in a jar, either. So what?

The so what is that one is more probable then the other, and I don't think that its evolution. This is why probability as a way of reasoning is a double-edged sword

Then you don't understand the theory or the evidence. Read a book.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-10-2014, 06:42 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2014 06:52 PM by Switz5678.)
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(29-10-2014 06:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-10-2014 05:36 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  The so what is that one is more probable then the other, and I don't think that its evolution. This is why probability as a way of reasoning is a double-edged sword

Then you don't understand the theory or the evidence. Read a book.

Ok chas. You tell me which is more likely

Person A (believes in evolution)
The chances must be astronomical for the constituents (to arrive at this location in space) required for the complex chemistry to turn into biology, and then go through selective processing to end with us humans.

Person B (mental illness)
I have a mental illness, and evolution is just some kind of mental projection distorting what I perceive to be reality.. I'm crazy

I'm not implying evolution is a chance process.

"We can talk about likelihood, and we can compare what seems more or less likely. In common parlance we use the word probability. Don't conflate that with the mathematical term."

Google
likelihood- the state or fact of something's being likely; probability.

Webster
likelihood- probability <a strong likelihood that he is correct — T. D. Anderson>

I didn't conflate anything. What you did is just verbal shenanigans.. Twice I have came here, and twice I have ran into your condescending tone. So please explain to me this difference between probability in the math sense, and its use in common parlance?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-10-2014, 06:56 PM
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(29-10-2014 04:28 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  I guess my basic line of reasoning can be summed up as follows..

-We're unable to discern a method to establish the likelihood of [an afterlife], or the other.
-I see life/living as preferable to death/nonexisting.
-In the absence of the ability to discern possibility/probability you should choose what makes you most happy.

My end game from this would be that its rational to believe, and not rational to not believe.

Ok, let's try to nip this one with a quick reductio ad absurdum...


Are you able to discern a method to establish the likelihood of MAGIC?


If yes, then please explain in detail your methodology. If no, then:

Do you see magic as preferable to no-magic?

If no, then why don't you find it preferable? If yes, then do you believe in magic?

Τί ἐστιν ἀλήθεια?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-10-2014, 07:01 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2014 07:06 PM by Chas.)
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(29-10-2014 06:42 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  
(29-10-2014 06:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  Then you don't understand the theory or the evidence. Read a book.

Ok chas. You tell me which is more likely

Person A (believes in evolution)
The chances must be astronomical for the constituents (to arrive at this location in space) required for the complex chemistry to turn into biology, and then go through selective processing to end with us humans.

'A' is not well formed so it is not worth considering. It presupposes that humans were a target - they aren't.

Quote:Person B (mental illness)
I have a mental illness, and evolution is just some kind of mental projection distorting what I perceive to be reality.. I'm crazy

I'm not implying evolution is a chance process.

Actually, you are implying that it has a target - it doesn't. The results are all contingent and not predictable; the process is algorithmic.
Quote:
Quote:We can talk about likelihood, and we can compare what seems more or less likely. In common parlance we use the word probability. Don't conflate that with the mathematical term.

Google
likelihood- the state or fact of something's being likely; probability.

Webster
likelihood- probability <a strong likelihood that he is correct — T. D. Anderson>

I didn't conflate anything. What you did is just verbal shenanigans.. Twice I have came here, and twice I have ran into your condescending tone.

It's "have run". Drinking Beverage

One does not have to calculate likelihood, so you asking how to calculate it doesn't really make a lot of sense. That is not shenanigans, it is about the common usage versus the mathematical usage.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Chas's post
29-10-2014, 07:02 PM
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(29-10-2014 06:19 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  What I don't get is why you need a numerical probability but lets go down that route. The probability of an external agent outside the laws of time and physics are not calculable because so far there have been 0.00 external agents outside the laws of time and physics that have been found to exist.

If you were a deist that would be one thing but being a theist and choosing to believe in happy eternal dualism is self delusional, sorry.

To be honest with you I don't really know what the difference is between deist vs theist. I haven't read about this conflict between dualism either. Care to explain because I'd like to learn.

I'm pinging so hard on probability because I read the God delusion by Dawkins, and there was a segment where he talks about the probability/likelihood of god being nonzero but very close. I wondered to myself how did he arrive at this conclusion. How were people predicting a chance? I don't necessarily need exact numbers like .0007 percent.. A line of reasoning would suffice
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-10-2014, 07:08 PM
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(29-10-2014 06:12 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  My friends, I must step-away for a moment. My anxiety is getting bad

I don't believe in the bible(insert religious text)
I do believe in evolution

My argument could be also written as

You prefer heads
You flip a coin, but do/can not look at it
you prefer to entertain the idea that its heads

I'll be back to answer responses that didn't include strawmen or personal attacks.

Your coin is real.
It has a side we call heads (This is real)
It has a side we call tails (This is real)
Flipping the coin can have two real conclusions (heads or tails)

What you are talking about is flipping a coin with your eyes closed and choosing to believe that a million dollars teleported next to your coin.
In your mind, you are now RICH and the thought of that makes you happy.

Why not believe this if it makes you happy ?
The thought of a god isn't the other side of the coin. It's not any side of the coin.
The coin toss isn't one side god exists and the other it doesn't.
The coin toss is that the universe is real and physics can cause coins to land on one side or the other. That's it. Both sides of the coin represent REALITY.
You can't have one side be real and the other side be a fantasy.
Real objects can't do that.

The answer is simple. There is no evidence that a million dollars has teleported next to your coin and believing that is has serves no useful purpose other than to put a false sense of delusion into your mind so you can have a momentary smile on your face.

How about you find REAL things in life that make you smile instead of mental figments of your imagination.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-10-2014, 07:08 PM
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
Deism is essentially the belief in a non-interfering, first-cause god.

Theism is the belief in a god that interferes and gives a damn about what you do...

In a nutshell...


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



My youtube musings: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfFoxbz...UVi1pf4B5g
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes CiderThinker's post
29-10-2014, 07:10 PM
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(29-10-2014 05:45 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  
(29-10-2014 05:39 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Still waiting for why you think you can possibly survive your own death. Any plausible mechanism of action will do. Drinking Beverage

Wasn't the point

It is precisely the point.

#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes GirlyMan's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: