Why you choose to not believe?
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29-10-2014, 08:34 PM
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(29-10-2014 06:42 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  
(29-10-2014 06:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  Then you don't understand the theory or the evidence. Read a book.

Twice I have came here, and twice I have ran into your condescending tone.

That's one of the things we pay him for. Thumbsup

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29-10-2014, 08:49 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2014 09:29 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(29-10-2014 05:13 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  Bucky Ball-
I'm familiar with pascals wager.. I don't think that this is an off-shoot of pascals wager. I'm not making an argument about gain/loss post-death.
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If choose to believe in what you do based on tangible evidence, and that choice makes you most happy I can understand that.
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Chas

My argument doesn't hinge on wanting something to be true.. I agree wanting something to be true can be very dangerous. The main reason I turned away from Christianity is because I began to wonder if I believed for good reasons, or believed because I wanted it to be true. For me this has been a painful experience.

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I see probability as a very fickle thing when applied outside of mathematics. Take for example this scenario

First and foremost I believe in evolution

Person A (believes in evolution)
The chances must be astronomical for the constituents required for the complex chemistry to turn into biology, and then go through selective processing to end with us humans.

Person B (mental illness)
I have a mental illness, and evolution is just some kind of mental projection distorting what I perceive to be reality.. I'm crazy

Which is more likely?

Have you read the Boltzmann brain paradox? its very interesting

A and B are the fallacy of the false analogy.

There are many good reasons to dismiss any notions of any the gods. The first is that is no coherent definition of one. Until someone can define coherently what one is, "belief" in a god is the same as belief in a 1957 Chevy orbiting Pluto. You got one ?

You should check out Dr. Sean Carroll's debate with WLC. He destroys the Boltzman brain paradox as having any relevance here. It's not interesting at all. Neuroscience knows too much about emergent consciousness to take that seriously. Consciousness evolved, biologically. Boltzman Brains are unreasonable to anyone who knows about Biology.

"We're unable to discern a method to establish the likelihood of one, or the other."
---- Completely false. We know that consciousness is an emergent property of healthy functioning brains. If there is no healthy functioning brain, and NO MECHANISM that we know of for human life/brain functioning or continuation, AND WE KNOW that damaged brains do not work, so then there IS a method. You just don't know enough about it to make a rational choice.

"I see life/living as preferable to death/nonexisting."
--- And we all have fantasies. Wanting something to be true because we think we want it doesn't make it true, or reasonable.

"In the absence of the ability to discern possibility/probability you should choose what makes you most happy."
--- No. That's the choice a child might make, not a reasonable adult. Your premise is false. We do have the ability to discern the probability you claim we don't.
You face reality, and make the most of it. There are all sorts of unexamined outcomes, and unintended consequences of choosing to live in a delusional, irrational world. Your choice is irrational based on what is known about life and consciousness. Boltzman brains are not reasonable in any way, based on what we know about how consciousness works, and when and how it occurs.

"My end game from this would be that its rational to believe, and not rational to not believe."
Believe in what ? Immortality ? The question is "Why are you even thinking about it at all ?"
"Immortality" in a non-temporal environment (an environment we can assume only exists in this universe, reasonably), is meaningless.
You're saying you get to believe in Santa cuz believing in Santa makes you happy.
What other fantasies do you have that you "want" to believe in that would make you happy that you find reasonable ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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29-10-2014, 09:11 PM
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(29-10-2014 08:34 PM)Can_of_Beans Wrote:  
(29-10-2014 06:42 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  Twice I have came here, and twice I have ran into your condescending tone.

That's one of the things we pay him for. Thumbsup

It's "I have run", not "I have ran". Big Grin

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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29-10-2014, 09:34 PM
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(29-10-2014 09:11 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(29-10-2014 08:34 PM)Can_of_Beans Wrote:  That's one of the things we pay him for. Thumbsup

It's "I have run", not "I have ran". Big Grin

Are we running away or running to something ?
I'm confused
And why are we running ?
Is there a monster coming to eat our brains ?
I heard that there is a 50/50 chance of the zombie apocalypse on Halloween.
I prefer to believe in tails, cause heads means your brains will get eaten and that doesn't make me happy.

I better start planning now, just in case the flip of the coin doesn't go my way.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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29-10-2014, 09:45 PM
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(29-10-2014 09:34 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  
(29-10-2014 09:11 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It's "I have run", not "I have ran". Big Grin

Are we running away or running to something ?
I'm confused
And why are we running ?
Is there a monster coming to eat our brains ?
I heard that there is a 50/50 chance of the zombie apocalypse on Halloween.
I prefer to believe in tails, cause heads means your brains will get eaten and that doesn't make me happy.

I better start planning now, just in case the flip of the coin doesn't go my way.

Someone named Rahn can either ran or run. Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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29-10-2014, 10:16 PM
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(29-10-2014 04:28 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  I can understand the obvious flaws in all the mainstream religious belief systems. What I can't understand is why the choice to believe in a Godless universe without the chance of afterlife? or even an afterlife without a God entity?

I never chose not to believe. It just sort of happened. I used to believe, eventually I realized my doubts were so great that I really wasn't a believer anymore, and despite me wanting to come back into the fold for two years, I couldn't make myself believe something I didn't.

Now that I've come to terms with that, I don't see any reason to try and start believing in any one particular nonfalsifiable religion.


(29-10-2014 04:28 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  My end game from this would be that its rational to believe, and not rational to not believe.

Why? What evidence do you have that your beliefs are correct? More specifically, what non-presuppositional evidence do you have?

If you believe simply because it makes you happier, that's just wishful thinking. You need some evidence your stance is correct before it can be taken seriously, otherwise, it's just an assertion.
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29-10-2014, 10:27 PM
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(29-10-2014 09:34 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  
(29-10-2014 09:11 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It's "I have run", not "I have ran". Big Grin

Are we running away or running to something ?
I'm confused
And why are we running ?
Is there a monster coming to eat our brains ?
I heard that there is a 50/50 chance of the zombie apocalypse on Halloween.
I prefer to believe in tails, cause heads means your brains will get eaten and that doesn't make me happy.

I better start planning now, just in case the flip of the coin doesn't go my way.

Basically...run!

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"I feel as though the camera is almost a kind of voyeur in Mr. Beans life, and you just watch this bizarre man going about his life in the way that he wants to."

-Rowan Atkinson
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29-10-2014, 11:09 PM
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
whether I believe it or not wouldn't change the fact of their being an afterlife.. or some reincarnation.

So I kinda let my mind accept the ideas that are backed up in reality.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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29-10-2014, 11:21 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2014 11:33 PM by Switz5678.)
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(29-10-2014 10:16 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(29-10-2014 04:28 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  I can understand the obvious flaws in all the mainstream religious belief systems. What I can't understand is why the choice to believe in a Godless universe without the chance of afterlife? or even an afterlife without a God entity?

I never chose not to believe. It just sort of happened. I used to believe, eventually I realized my doubts were so great that I really wasn't a believer anymore, and despite me wanting to come back into the fold for two years, I couldn't make myself believe something I didn't.

Now that I've come to terms with that, I don't see any reason to try and start believing in any one particular nonfalsifiable religion.


(29-10-2014 04:28 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  My end game from this would be that its rational to believe, and not rational to not believe.

Why? What evidence do you have that your beliefs are correct? More specifically, what non-presuppositional evidence do you have?

If you believe simply because it makes you happier, that's just wishful thinking. You need some evidence your stance is correct before it can be taken seriously, otherwise, it's just an assertion.

I have no evidence to prove the existence of an afterlife. I don't know if this is what I'd call I a belief, its more of an entertainment of a scenario. I had felt at the time of the OP that the entertainment of this scenario could be reasonable. I wasn't certain when I posted it, and to be honest I'm less sure now.

There are questions that have been haunting me lately. Having anxiety/panic disorder just magnifies this.

Probability and Time, what are they really?

Take for example when a weather man says there is a 60 percent chance of rain. Are we only able to predict with that certainty because we are unable to recognize all the factor that summed would mean its going to rain, or is there actually a 60 percent chance? I, at this time, side with the former explanation. From there my thoughts start to wonder if probability actually has any meaning outside of mathematics, and if it does how much merit should I give it? I guess it depends on the situation

Time.. I'm sure everyone here has thought about time.

With that said, when I wrote the OP I felt that there is very little that could be said in terms of the probability of an afterlife. I realize now that there is very little that could be said about the probability of a lot of things. So any application of this reasoning on an afterlife could also be applied to a french fry farting unicorn. All I was trying to state was when there is very little that could be said, why not entertain the scenario which pleases you most? Never would I suggest that entertaining this idea would make it more likely to be true.. Nor ignoring evidence to the contrary.

I see my wife who is catholic, and she seems so much happier then I am. I rarely try to confront or debate her believes because I feel like exposing the flaws could make her feel unsure, and she would become a less happy person permanently. So I brought this here to be critiqued because I knew you guys would sense the chum, and not feel less happy if I changed your views.

In the end I just feel like there is so much to learn.. I feel like I'm certain of nothing. I find this disheartening even though I can use the Socratic method to show that I should not. I just feel lost my man.. lost
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29-10-2014, 11:38 PM
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(29-10-2014 04:28 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  I can understand the obvious flaws in all the mainstream religious belief systems. What I can't understand is why the choice to believe in a Godless universe without the chance of afterlife? or even an afterlife without a God entity?
------------------------------------
I guess my basic line of reasoning can be summed up as follows..

-We're unable to discern a method to establish the likelihood of one, or the other.
-I see life/living as preferable to death/nonexisting.
-In the absence of the ability to discern possibility/probability you should choose what makes you most happy.

My end game from this would be that its rational to believe, and not rational to not believe.
---------------------------------------

Anyways, I'm interested in hearing your views

It boils down to this.

Religious people often claim that a life without god is a life without purpose or point.

I agree. But I also wonder what purpose god gives life. Throw god into any equation and there are no answers, only more questions. God giving you eternal life or suffering does nothing for purpose. Nothing for reason. It is just another thing without a purpose. Why does god existing mean anything for the meaning of life?

Let's say god exists. Your god.

You die and go to the heavenly gates guarded by angels and all that wonderful jazz. They welcome you to an eternity of serving your god in heaven. Whatever eternity means. You get bliss forever.

What meaning does that give your life? What purpose does that give your existence?

Don't just say gods purpose or he has his reasons that will be revealed unto me or some other such cop out answer. Can you fathom an answer that would make any sense or give anything a purpose?

Does anything matter?

My answer to that is that on a grande scale nothing at all matters. One person suffering or all people suffering. The death of a kitten or the birth of a child. But on a personal level, the life you live is affected by all the things within your range. It can be improved or made worse all by people or things outside of your control. That is how it matters to me. I personally prefer a life of happiness and peace for me and my children. It's easier and more pleasurable. So I'm a reasonable person.

Why do I need a god for that? It doesn't add anything, instead it creates more questions.

Why do you need a god? What good does it do for you that you can't do for yourself?

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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