Why you choose to not believe?
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06-11-2014, 04:20 PM
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(06-11-2014 04:06 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  
(06-11-2014 05:37 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  That's impossible. You cannot test an afterlife. It's impossible by definition. An afterlife would belong to a domain we don't live in. If we could test it, it would be natural, and not supernatural. Science can only test measurable and verifiable phenomena, natural phenomena. Not magic, not ghosts, not anything else of that sort.

You claim that there is a 50/50 probability, but I doubt that's correct. The only reason you think so is that you have been educated and/or informed about religious views of afterlives, so your mind can accept it. But that's a biased thought. It's like thinking that Harry Potter and Hogwarts may exist, because why not.

(If it does please tell them to send me the letter.)

Exactly! you can not test this.

I did entertain a 50/50 scenario.. I shouldn't have.

This was all I was trying to say.

When you have an undefinable probability why not hope for a said scenario if it makes you happy. I really don't care what it is you want to hope for.. The point is that for some having hope makes them more happy.

If you were to have a medical condition that has a 75 percent mortality rate would you not hope for that 25 percent being you? Would that not make you more happy to operate under the hope that you will survive?

With that said why not apply the same rationale to something in which there is no defined probability?


The way I described this in the OP was bad. I failed, and I need to put my big boy thinking cap on before I do something like that again. I have learned much from this

If you're hoping over acting.. your life can be drastically less enjoyable. It depends largely on the person but generally, some type of action upon living would be more rewarding for a person.

If I had 75% chance of being ill, I wouldn't want to hope the 25% paid off. I'd rather live like the 75% was going to be for sure and enjoy myself while I know I can.. if the 25% did turn out to be legit, then that's an award, but hoping for it has little benefit to me. To some people the psychological benefit will be greater... but that's going to be a interpersonal question.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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06-11-2014, 04:27 PM
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(06-11-2014 04:06 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  
(06-11-2014 05:37 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  That's impossible. You cannot test an afterlife. It's impossible by definition. An afterlife would belong to a domain we don't live in. If we could test it, it would be natural, and not supernatural. Science can only test measurable and verifiable phenomena, natural phenomena. Not magic, not ghosts, not anything else of that sort.

You claim that there is a 50/50 probability, but I doubt that's correct. The only reason you think so is that you have been educated and/or informed about religious views of afterlives, so your mind can accept it. But that's a biased thought. It's like thinking that Harry Potter and Hogwarts may exist, because why not.

(If it does please tell them to send me the letter.)

Exactly! you can not test this.

I did entertain a 50/50 scenario.. I shouldn't have.

This was all I was trying to say.

When you have an undefinable probability why not hope for a said scenario if it makes you happy. I really don't care what it is you want to hope for.. The point is that for some having hope makes them more happy.

If you were to have a medical condition that has a 75 percent mortality rate would you not hope for that 25 percent being you? Would that not make you more happy to operate under the hope that you will survive?

With that said why not apply the same rationale to something in which there is no defined probability?


The way I described this in the OP was bad. I failed, and I need to put my big boy thinking cap on before I do something like that again. I have learned much from this

It might be harder to slog through if you want to believe in an afterlife. I've gained acceptance of it being unlikely and emotional distance from this concept, it can help to evaluate questions like this and dismiss the probability casually.
An example of my own thinking is that concepts such as heaven, perfected existence, etc. have no tangible reality in the real world partly because it's impossible to define these things.
However, I think that's a very damning testament to the nature of these concepts, they can only be defined inside an individual's imagination. No two individuals could agree what these concepts really mean, this is the hallmark of pure imagination with no underlying basis for reality.
Maybe that is not so compelling to someone wanting to believe, but having no desire to entertain these questions over and over, it is enough for me to be dismissive of the whole idea of the afterlife.

The tree of delusion is nourished by the vague promises and skewed perception of prayer. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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06-11-2014, 04:30 PM
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(01-11-2014 10:42 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  Well, this is the same reasoning that causes me to question the multiple individuals who say that there is close to zero chance. I notice that you guys are much more willing to accept this line of thinking. Bias I assume. My "decent" and their "~zero" both are wrong for the exact same reason.. There is no way we can know this! If you believe either you are doing so without evidence to support it.

It seems to me that this is asking us/me to prove a negative. Can't be done. No sense in trying.

Q: Can I prove there is no afterlife?
A: No

Q: Can I prove a '57 Oldsmobile isn't orbiting Pluto?
A: No

In neither case do I feel the need to contemplate it as a possibilty or act as it might be even remotely true. It makes me smile thinking one day astronauts will fly by the '57 Olds on their way out of our solar system and say WTF! But this moment will most likely be the only time I'll consider it for the rest of my life and I certainly won't base any of my actions as though it could be true.

"We're run by a pothead, a housewife, a guy that buys lube in 5kg containers, a cat and a Nazi. Oh and Dom.” - ‘Muffs

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's." - Mark Twain in Eruption
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06-11-2014, 04:51 PM
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(06-11-2014 04:41 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  I didn't ask you what you know about the after life I asked you what you personally believe about the after life. Those are two different questions.

I DON'T PERSONALLY BELIEVE ANYTHING ABOUT AN AFTERLIFE. Ask me again though because I'm sure this will be a Goodwill Hunting revelation.

"What do you believe?"
I don't
"What do you believe?"
I don't.. wtf look
"What do you believe?"
quit fucking with me whiskey..
"What do you believe?"
Weeping
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Again with Ole Willy's Razor. Occam's Razor isn't an irrefutable principle of logic or a scientific result. The preference towards simplicity in the scientific method is what it is about. A preference towards simplicity is not a decider of probability

"Now you are just lying through your fucking teeth."

Well I made it abundantly clear that I was wrong to say believe.. Many times. I also said it was wrong to imply we choose to believe.

So with that said the proper response to this is.. Cat Burglar!

"From your OP:"

Game has changed my friend.. Adapt or die


"Before I respond to anymore of your, lets call them, answers I would like to know WHY you didn't like that evolution was proven true? You're not an atheist that's obvious and the only reason to dislike evolution being true is for Religious reasons. What do you self identify as? Christian? Muslim? Deist?"

It made me unhappy because the pretty picture that I had in my mind got real messed up in one stroke. I'd like to continue to exist happily ever after just like the Ole Pastor always said, but its apparent that Pastor had got it very wrong.. This isn't a you got a ticket- your-in-guarantee anymore. I liked the ticket to happily ever after idea. Has been a tough break up for me
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I should never have used the word believe, or the phrase choose to believe. I admitted this. Keep on playing word games with it though!

How did you find your probability?

Err.. forget it I already know. You misapplied information, and then incorrectly decided that this represented a probability Drinking Beverage
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06-11-2014, 05:18 PM
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
Once again. *sigh*
You have not demonstrated that an afterlife is possible nor a way to test if it is possible so you don't get to debate probability. You are putting the cart before the horse. It's not OUR responsibility to disprove anything or argue that it's probable or not probable, science does not need to waste it's time testing every undemonstrated claim.

We can't determine the probability that undetectable universe creating pixies exist.
We can't determine the probability that invisible untestable Jammie Dodgers don't constantly float in front of our faces.

To believe in anyone of those things as possible without evidence is irrational. If you want to think that an afterlife is possible when all the testable data says it's unlikely that's fine, so long as you admit and are OK with it being irrational and at best an emotional self manipulation.

You claim it's about a rational belief and then you say it's not. Fair enough, opinions change. What gets me is you say it's about what makes you happy, then you claim your feelings don't matter when it comes to the truth, now you are back to claiming it's about what makes you happy that's important. Which is..confusing to say the least.

So you have, or had, a Pastor? What faith and what denomination? What do you self identify as?

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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06-11-2014, 05:26 PM
RE: Why you choose to not believe?
(06-11-2014 04:51 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  Well I made it abundantly clear that I was wrong to say believe.. Many times. I also said it was wrong to imply we choose to believe.

Nope. I was not complaining that you said believe, and I don't think you missed that either but I'll leave that alone. I was criticizing you because you said it was not about rational when the entire point of your OP was about the belief being rational.

If you don't stand by your OP that's fine, you shouldn't.

It might sound like I'm trying to bust your chops but I ain't, I'm trying to explain that probability can't be discussed (even our inability to determine it) until possibility is substantiated.
We are not required to test claims put forth without evidence to dismiss them. To think otherwise is to enter the playground of the woo peddler.

Anyway what do you self identify as faith wise, that's what I really wanna know.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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