Why you need to make the call....
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25-01-2018, 10:42 PM
Why you need to make the call....
A person today made a question about offers of proof of lack of God etc....

Despite the double negative and want to trap you into admitting your atheism is another faith, it touches on the problems I wrote about before in other venues:

Lack of proof does not prove lack of (God) object.

Onus for proof etc should reside with each person making a choice.

You as atheists should ask the question and solve the problem for you and others notably your kids etc.

To this again really it does help...

"Evidence of Absence : Per the traditional aphorism, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", positive evidence of this kind is distinct from a lack of evidence or ignorance of that which should have been found already, had it existed. In this regard Irving Copi writes:"

-- You fail on the concept of God being vague and the notion you don't elaborate the fact you have a concrete define of God. And you (likely as other atheists do) state that you feel others have burden to prove. They don't.

-- AND --

""In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence as positive proof of its non-occurrence.""

Again the specific nature of God matters as for who makes such a claim but overall you can't prove Jesus did anything other than have others make claims about him.

See quote of Copi that says "In some circumstances..." sure, but not this one.

None of that helps you.

You don't rely on murder and suicide of others to pay for you.

Lack of proof does not prove lack of object and never will.

You have a proxy now.

There will be no proof ever.

QED

There will be none and witness space/time task is infinite.

You need to employ the logic for yourself and prove it to you which is very possible.

Not doing so makes you agnostic and not atheist.

QED

A debater who relied upon making slurs of me and ad hominem and other foibles went on to support his errant claims via Copi etc using a flawed example using chairs in a hotel room next door.

A waste of time since God is not visible this way and he would require many event spaces and times etc.

It would seem to prove me right anyway but this is the problem with people who like to dispute common logic using very technical offers as quoted of others etc.

Fallacy on their parts now.

Per this person and his friend who also supported them and he, they live in same ignorance that those of faith do.

That being I don't see it, until you prove it, I am atheistic.

But they don't know why and are waiting for proof.

They then blame others for their choices and so it goes.
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26-01-2018, 12:24 AM (This post was last modified: 26-01-2018 12:29 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Why you need to make the call....
Hi, welcome Smile

I answered your questions in another thread as best I could. It seemed to me like you were a theist when you asked them, so I'm rather confused. I'm not sure what you're actually saying now.

Anyhow, "agnosticism" answers a different question to "atheism", and as such you can be both. Atheism, by default, is the lack of belief in gods; it doesn't require belief that gods don't exist, nor any claim of knowledge (which agnosticism refers to). It seems what you would call agnosticism, we would call agnostic atheism. Using different definitions doesn't make the position actually any different.

I agree that if people take it further and say they believe there are no gods, it's reasonable for them to explain why they believe that.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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26-01-2018, 12:32 AM
RE: Why you need to make the call....
Here's a video in which I go into more detail. There's no requirement to decide if a claim is true or false, it's perfectly reasonable to withhold judgement either way when evidence is inconclusive.




I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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26-01-2018, 12:54 AM
RE: Why you need to make the call....
(26-01-2018 12:32 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Here's a video in which I go into more detail. There's no requirement to decide if a claim is true or false, it's perfectly reasonable to withhold judgement either way when evidence is inconclusive.




To address both of your replies, my point is many atheists are too soft on it and hence agnostic

You need to accept the act and prove to you. This is my position and I point out weakness via the proxy on burden and that lack of proof is not enough.

Leaving it open is the problem if you can see that?
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26-01-2018, 01:00 AM
RE: Why you need to make the call....
"....Anyhow, "agnosticism" answers a different question to "atheism", and as such you can be both. Atheism, by default, is the lack of belief in gods; it doesn't require belief that gods don't exist, ...."

It should and I showed you why and how.

Do it for you and your kids, prove it since you can.

Do their work for them.

Solve it for you and slam the door on it.

Then you can help others.
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26-01-2018, 01:02 AM
RE: Why you need to make the call....
I still don't get what you're complaining about. Are you saying atheists should claim to know for sure there is no God? Why do you want them to do that?

If someone feels there is no way to decide one way or the other, isn't it more reasonable to say they don't believe God exists nor doesn't exist?

I don't even know what a God is, so I don't have any opinion about it. Every theist tells me something different, if they even define it at all. So it's an irrelevancy to me.

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26-01-2018, 01:07 AM
RE: Why you need to make the call....
(26-01-2018 01:00 AM)TerryZZJones Wrote:  "....Anyhow, "agnosticism" answers a different question to "atheism", and as such you can be both. Atheism, by default, is the lack of belief in gods; it doesn't require belief that gods don't exist, ...."

It should and I showed you why and how.

Do it for you and your kids, prove it since you can.

Do their work for them.

Solve it for you and slam the door on it.

Then you can help others.

I can show that all definitions of God thus far are either incoherent, unfalsifiable or trivial relabellings. That's enough to dismiss the idea as irrelevant speculation at best.

Why don't you want kids to think for themselves about this? You'd want me to indoctrinate my children with the "knowledge" that there is no God? I'd rather teach them how to think critically and allow them to decide for themselves. If they ask my opinion I will give it, along with my reasoning, and if it stands up to scrutiny they would agree with me anyway.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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26-01-2018, 01:09 AM
RE: Why you need to make the call....
(26-01-2018 01:02 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I still don't get what you're complaining about. Are you saying atheists should claim to know for sure there is no God? Why do you want them to do that?

If someone feels there is no way to decide one way or the other, isn't it more reasonable to say they don't believe God exists nor doesn't exist?

I don't even know what a God is, so I don't have any opinion about it. Every theist tells me something different, if they even define it at all. So it's an irrelevancy to me.

Not sure I complained at all, you seem to be doing that. Problem is you rely on others for proof. And no proof does not help you either.

Your answer is here "I still don't get what you're complaining about. Are you saying atheists should claim to know for sure there is no God? Why do you want them to do that?"

If they don't know then they are agnostic.

If you do know there is no God then you should know why. Right?

What I am saying is actually simple..... you are getting twisted on it since? You are not sure....
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26-01-2018, 01:10 AM
RE: Why you need to make the call....
And to complain, these people are around and make decisions about and for you. Theists that is.

And you need to be sure of what you are and why..... that is my point. I explained that really as to how this really should work for you.
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26-01-2018, 01:14 AM
RE: Why you need to make the call....
(26-01-2018 01:07 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  
(26-01-2018 01:00 AM)TerryZZJones Wrote:  "....Anyhow, "agnosticism" answers a different question to "atheism", and as such you can be both. Atheism, by default, is the lack of belief in gods; it doesn't require belief that gods don't exist, ...."

It should and I showed you why and how.

Do it for you and your kids, prove it since you can.

Do their work for them.

Solve it for you and slam the door on it.

Then you can help others.

I can show that all definitions of God thus far are either incoherent, unfalsifiable or trivial relabellings. That's enough to dismiss the idea as irrelevant speculation at best.

Why don't you want kids to think for themselves about this? You'd want me to indoctrinate my children with the "knowledge" that there is no God? I'd rather teach them how to think critically and allow them to decide for themselves. If they ask my opinion I will give it, along with my reasoning, and if it stands up to scrutiny they would agree with me anyway.

"I can show that all definitions of God thus far are either incoherent, unfalsifiable or trivial relabellings. That's enough to dismiss the idea as irrelevant speculation at best. "

But it is not proof. And only discredits those instances no?

"Why don't you want kids to think for themselves about this? You'd want me to indoctrinate my children with the "knowledge" that there is no God? I'd rather teach them how to think critically and allow them to decide for themselves. If they ask my opinion I will give it, along with my reasoning, and if it stands up to scrutiny they would agree with me anyway."

It is too complex and others will work on them. Theists will use the weak points I point out that you have.

Plus they may be indoctrinated under duress etc. Teach them what is real.

You get it wrong, how can your kids get it right?

And I explained it all in simple English so far.

You have a weak spot or two. Use a general solution.

Otherwise you are agnostic and open to offers of proof.
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