Will Atheism outgrow Islam?
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28-09-2012, 10:13 AM (This post was last modified: 28-09-2012 10:19 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Will Atheism outgrow Islam?
(28-09-2012 10:09 AM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  Atheism=lack of Belief, that means NO BELIEFE at all.
World without Religion=World without knowing anything about god=no atheism developed in the first place.
If no religion developed, how will you stand in opposition to something that not existed?
Word. Though atheism means not having a belief in a deity. You can still believe in, for example, Dualism while being an Atheist.

(28-09-2012 09:57 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I disagree. Atheism is the belief that there is no god. It is both a belief system and a counter to one. Without religion, everyone would be an atheist (or possibly agnostic - I'm not sure about that one Consider ).
Why do you think there's no term for people who don't believe in Santa Claus, fairies, Nessie, Bigfoot, Aliens, etc.? Consider

Anyway, I'm sure you already know this, but atheism is not a belief system.

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28-09-2012, 10:22 AM
RE: Will Atheism outgrow Islam?
(28-09-2012 10:09 AM)Marco Krieger Wrote:  
(28-09-2012 09:57 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I disagree. Atheism is the belief that there is no god. It is both a belief system and a counter to one. Without religion, everyone would be an atheist (or possibly agnostic - I'm not sure about that one Consider ).

Atheism=lack of Belief, that means NO BELIEFE at all.
World without Religion=World without knowing anything about god=no atheism developed in the first place.
If no religion developed, how will you stand in opposition to something that not existed?
Point taken. I suppose it all depends on the definition of atheism that one subscribes to. Some define it as "rejection of belief in gods". Others as "belief there are no gods". Others as "absence of belief in gods". Your definition fits the last one; mine the middle one.

Regarding "without religion", you're taking the position that religion never existed in the first place. Since that can't be true at this point, I was taking "without religion" to mean somewhere in the future where all religion would be gone. However, in that case, we would still have knowledge that it once existed, but no one would believe any of it anymore. Hence, we would all be atheists.

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28-09-2012, 10:25 AM
RE: Will Atheism outgrow Islam?
(28-09-2012 10:22 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Regarding "without religion", you're taking the position that religion never existed in the first place. Since that can't be true at this point, I was taking "without religion" to mean somewhere in the future where all religion would be gone. However, in that case, we would still have knowledge that it once existed, but no one would believe any of it anymore. Hence, we would all be atheists.
Yeah, I think I should have clarified what I meant when I said "without religion". It was indeed meant to express that atheism required religion in order to come into existence.

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28-09-2012, 10:30 AM
RE: Will Atheism outgrow Islam?
(28-09-2012 10:13 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(28-09-2012 09:57 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I disagree. Atheism is the belief that there is no god. It is both a belief system and a counter to one. Without religion, everyone would be an atheist (or possibly agnostic - I'm not sure about that one Consider ).
Why do you think there's no term for people who don't believe in Santa Claus, fairies, Nessie, Bigfoot, Aliens, etc.? Consider
Because those haven't been important enough issues - like opposing the concept of god - to bother labeling.

(28-09-2012 10:13 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Anyway, I'm sure you already know this, but atheism is not a belief system.
Um, ok. I do think it's a belief though by one of the definitions that I mentioned in my reply to Marco Krieger. Maybe not a belief system per se.

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28-09-2012, 10:32 AM
RE: Will Atheism outgrow Islam?
(28-09-2012 10:25 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(28-09-2012 10:22 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Regarding "without religion", you're taking the position that religion never existed in the first place. Since that can't be true at this point, I was taking "without religion" to mean somewhere in the future where all religion would be gone. However, in that case, we would still have knowledge that it once existed, but no one would believe any of it anymore. Hence, we would all be atheists.
Yeah, I think I should have clarified what I meant when I said "without religion". It was indeed meant to express that atheism required religion in order to come into existence.
Yes, that I agree with. Cool

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28-09-2012, 11:54 AM
RE: Will Atheism outgrow Islam?
(28-09-2012 10:22 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I suppose it all depends on the definition of atheism that one subscribes to. Some define it as "rejection of belief in gods". Others as "belief there are no gods". Others as "absence of belief in gods". Your definition fits the last one; mine the middle one.

No, you don't get to make up your own definitions. Sorry, your definition is mistaken - it's a common mistake, but still a mistake.

The prefix "a" means "not". Some examples:
biotic = living, abiotic = not living
morphous = having a shape, amorphous = not having a shape
septic = being diseased, aseptic = not being diseased
theist = having a religious belief, atheist = not having a religious belief

The definition you seem to prefer would require a different word with a different prefix. Possibly "Antitheist" or better yet, "Contratheist" to remain with Latin roots.

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29-09-2012, 04:41 AM
RE: Will Atheism outgrow Islam?
(28-09-2012 10:25 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(28-09-2012 10:22 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Regarding "without religion", you're taking the position that religion never existed in the first place. Since that can't be true at this point, I was taking "without religion" to mean somewhere in the future where all religion would be gone. However, in that case, we would still have knowledge that it once existed, but no one would believe any of it anymore. Hence, we would all be atheists.
Yeah, I think I should have clarified what I meant when I said "without religion". It was indeed meant to express that atheism required religion in order to come into existence.

Clarify even further with "without the notion of a divine being", there would be no need for atheism.

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29-09-2012, 07:06 AM
RE: Will Atheism outgrow Islam?
I would have to say that atheism has gone on as long as burials have. Most supernatural concepts hold with them gods of one sort or another whether they are described as gods or not. There's not been much of a community without deities.

If you want it to be positive let's just try and raise the number of atheist+'s out there =p I like atheism+ as it's being described so far and I think it makes a good stab at being a positive belief system while not yet having the most inspiring name. If you're not aware of the difference, the plus adds in things like civil rights, skepticism, and anti-theism. You're much less likely to run into a "spiritual" atheist+. It's a term that was primarily made so that the activists can seperate themselves enough to break out of a lot of the infighting that those more focused on living life and keeping the peace tend to bring up when you stir the pot.

I would say probably around %15 of muslims are not muslims. Within their dominated countries being born to muslims means you're either a muslim for life or a serious pariah. With fear of death or severe beating I think most people choose to just live the quiet deception. Look at christian dominated countries; nowadays they don't generally have as severe of punishments for apostasy, but still a large portion of the public takes a benign acceptance of the dominant religion rather than be social pariahs.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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29-09-2012, 01:52 PM
RE: Will Atheism outgrow Islam?
(29-09-2012 07:06 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  I like atheism+

Where's my tomato? Tongue

And where were you when the plus-bashing was going on, fangrrl? Big Grin

But it does raise a point, in that atheism itself is a struggle against a social injustice. When one is atheist over time, it seems one naturally evolves an atheistic belief system that speaks out against other social injustices. I can see that. So while atheism itself is not a elief system, it does seem to lead to an undefined belief system. I'm not really secular humanist either, and plus is out... guess it is back to taoism. Big Grin

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11-10-2012, 08:57 AM
RE: Will Atheism outgrow Islam?
(28-09-2012 11:54 AM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(28-09-2012 10:22 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I suppose it all depends on the definition of atheism that one subscribes to. Some define it as "rejection of belief in gods". Others as "belief there are no gods". Others as "absence of belief in gods". Your definition fits the last one; mine the middle one.

No, you don't get to make up your own definitions. Sorry, your definition is mistaken - it's a common mistake, but still a mistake.

The prefix "a" means "not". Some examples:
biotic = living, abiotic = not living
morphous = having a shape, amorphous = not having a shape
septic = being diseased, aseptic = not being diseased
theist = having a religious belief, atheist = not having a religious belief

The definition you seem to prefer would require a different word with a different prefix. Possibly "Antitheist" or better yet, "Contratheist" to remain with Latin roots.
Sorry for the delayed reply. I lost track of this thread and didn't see this until now.

Here's a source that agrees with me:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

I think the term atheism, like many other terms, has taken on more than one meaning. If you look around the internet you will find the 3 variations that I mentioned and probably others as well. If there is an authoritative source for the definition of atheism, I am unaware of one. And, if there isn't, then the "real" meaning is whatever the general consensus of people agree that it is, which currently encompasses at least the several versions that I mentioned. The important thing is that people define which meaning they have in mind when discussing atheism.

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