Will God Ever Die?
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17-08-2013, 10:47 PM (This post was last modified: 17-08-2013 10:54 PM by Raptor Jesus.)
RE: Will God Ever Die?
I personally think it all depends on evolution. Human kind as it is now? The answer would be no. If we evolve to the point where reliance on superstitious beliefs aren't necessary, than maybe.

But how do we know how we will evolve. There is this idea that we will evolve to be ever smarter and smarter beings, but we might not. Evolution doesn't care about what we want. Just what survives. If Christians, fighting Muslims, fighting Jews, and Hindus, and so on, kill off all "non-believers", OR it becomes imperative to associate with a religious affiliation just to survive their madness (this is why all their end of the world shit frightens me so much, they may just make it happen), than I don't think we will be ride of it. Religion IS in it's death troughs, but it's fighting hard for it's place, and atheism simply does not fight the same game. So we may lose in the end and the "believing mind" may win out over the "non-believing mind", evolutionarily speaking.

But, we have no choice in the end...none of us...about the course of evolution. 100 million years from now we will not be "us". That is a fact, simple and true. Whatever that will be, if it survives "itself" long enough to still have something to show for it, will NOT be "us". Yet it WILL be us, if it services itself. If not more likely, many new forms of us. What well those be? Not us. Will they believe in "God"? "Yahweh"? No, not "Yahweh", or anything like "him". That would be like asking a dinosaur whether it would have believed in "God".

If something that will come from us, survives long enough to come from us 100 million years from now, it may be more intelligent than us, and thus not need "God". Be less intelligent, and thus not have a brain capable of inventing "God". Or may keep the same course.

In the end, evolution wins.

But we really don't know that we wont evolve back into a less sentient species, though that may be less satisfying.

But a Christian god, "Yahweh", through all of that...not a chance.

...
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18-08-2013, 12:52 AM
RE: Will God Ever Die?
(17-08-2013 06:27 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  Gods will die when every human has something equivalent to a high school education, enough wealth to be comfortable, and connection to the global community. Under good social and economic conditions like that, superstition dies off on its own. So, when the worst-off parts of the world are like Sweden is today, religions and gods will be nothing more than subjects of historical interest.

That could take hundreds of years, thousands of years, or never happen at all because something horrible throws back progress.

*Points finger* ANTICHRIST!

I'm sure if you were a politician or a businessman or something and you said this, you'd have Left Beind type Christians ranting in the streets about your Antichristship .

I Will have My revenge on AlternateHistory.com, in this life or the next Evil_monster

~WrappedInShadows (AKA Me)
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18-08-2013, 03:29 AM
RE: Will God Ever Die?
Like Hitchens said, for as long as we are afraid of the dark and afraid to die then there will always be a god
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18-08-2013, 02:26 PM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2013 02:41 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Will God Ever Die?
(17-08-2013 04:10 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Some people (not naming any names) claimed that God was dead. The Age of Enlightenment was supposed supposed to bring about the death of God, but he seems to be kicking about almost as much as ever, so my question is, will he ever die? What would ensure his death (aside from our extinction)? Do our brains need to evolve a bit? Would enough knowledge about the Cosmos do him in? What will it take? Is God gonna live as long as humans do?
God will never die, as long as humans have capacity to feel and believe. However, we may subject God to selective pressure, so that he evolves. I did just that and my God evolved into Einsteinian universe-wide greatness of transcendence and mystical immanence and stuff. Makes no problems at all, certainly doesn't tell me to burn anyone at stake. It's a very well-behaved god. I'd say having a cat or a dog would manipulate your life more than my god. My god is my pet, or I am my god's pet, can't tell which is the case, so it's just like having a cat! Wink

Just kidding. Every time someone will have a spontaneous mystical experience, he or she will invent God over and over again, in every age, in every culture. I did, some of my friends did and even one scientist did and became a total believer. This stuff is real and you can't do anything about it. You have to accept, that sometimes god happens. What you can however do, is prevent old bullshit like Christianity or Islam from cashing in on the people who went through the mystical experience. You see, I am one of very few people who went through a mind-blowing mystical experiences of divinity and yet I did not grab the nearest religion nearby and said this is it. I have a friend who embraces all religions. Well, that's a good start in my book, but I did not stop till I embraced atheism and science too! And a few more things. You have to learn about god and spirituality and learn that it is not the problem. Lack of education, security and broad-mindedness is the problem. Small minds unite into tribes. (yes, even atheistic tribes) Great minds embrace everything. Great minds think alike.

You want to kill god? Kill tribalism! God is today nothing but a head on top of the tribal totem that you find on every block in USA. Any tribe people make, they put god on it, to make it look better. God is just a talking puppet people use to make others do as they say. You think God is a problem? No, it's people who use God for their purposes. They install a God-button into child minds that every power-hungry lunatic can push to control the person. I say, this shit has to go!

That's one of things I like about The Venus Project, it's a redesign of culture and economy that educates people out of tribalism and religion. You want to accomplish something, you apply science to social problems and design of environment. Don't use these ancient tribalistic instruments, you've got god on your money, FFS. And money in your churches.

You know what brought capitalism to its peak of power? Protestant ethics, according to Max Weber. Protestants believed it's pre-destined who's going to heaven, but you can only tell that from who is most blessed by God on Earth in his business. But even the blessed people should not indulge their wealth, they should invest it back to their business and expand. They should live poor while the business, the detector of God's grace takes a life of their own. Well, it works just fine even for the non-believers, they can live poor and work their ass off in the same way. You are non-believers, yet you have the same protestant ethics and values. How crazy is that?

The thing with today's age is, it is post-modern. All values devalue and people instinctively look for hard currency. Their either stick together, isolate and perish, or they look for ways to communicate across still expanding social vacuum of modern life where nobody knows their neighbors. And there are just very, very few ways to do that, among these are two that you know:
Money or hard science.
Money gets shit done and you see churches are money laundering institutions. That works, but also makes a shit out of the whole religious message, relationships and it abuses people. Money are also today totally de-regulated and there are major money-corrupting and counterfeiting institutions called the FED and central banks. What we today have as money is not what humanity had for all the millenia. It's worth less than the energy that the banking and stock market computers are running on. Also, sociologically, money are the poison that the snake uses to kill the prey and it is the acid that it uses to digest the catch. If the poison and acid gets out of its proper place and starts running in the veins of society, it will get sick. Our society is sick. 90 % people who stop me on the street, ask me for money.

Hard science also gets shit done. Hard science has advantage, it works globally, religions don't. But religion works for stupid people. So religion wins in short term with numbers, but science wins in long term. That's how I see it, in a very, very simplified way. I think I'm going to write my Master's sociologic thesis on that.
There are a few other ways, good and bad, easy and hard, but not pertinent to the question. Yes, I know that Islam is successful by holding people back culturally a couple hundred years, but they will likely end up behind in everything like Soviet Union, behind in technology, science and money. When the oil runs out.


Well, Dark Light, I hope I answered your questions. There isn't usually much discussion after I step in, usually not to anything that I say, that's a downside. Well, I described the problem and suggested some solutions. Questions are welcome, but I'm not good at the small talk. I prefer big talk Smile
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18-08-2013, 02:42 PM
RE: Will God Ever Die?
(18-08-2013 02:26 PM)Luminon Wrote:  You have to accept, that sometimes god happens.

HoC can vouch for that....Thumbsup

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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18-08-2013, 03:00 PM
RE: Will God Ever Die?
(18-08-2013 02:42 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(18-08-2013 02:26 PM)Luminon Wrote:  You have to accept, that sometimes god happens.

HoC can vouch for that....Thumbsup
How so? Last time I checked, he had a goddess! Smile She comes from Judaism, apparently. Got to check what she thinks of Yahweh Dodgy

No, what I meant is, when a person goes through a mystical experience. Like this man, a full-blown scientist. I only regret he uses Christian terms to describe his experience, I know that's unnecessary.
http://vedaavira.cz/english/index.aspx?p=4
What if that happened to you? What if you went through a mind-blowing days, weeks or months of mystical experiences? What would be left of your atheism? Probably you'd stay an atheist, but you'd know you need other instruments, other areas of knowledge to study this phenomenon. You even could get dissatisfied with the contemporary science, that does not yet study this phenomenon. WWYouD? Congratulations, you're an atheist! Wonderful, what will you become next?
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18-08-2013, 03:32 PM
RE: Will God Ever Die?
(18-08-2013 03:00 PM)Luminon Wrote:  No, what I meant is, when a person goes through a mystical experience. Like this man, a full-blown scientist.

Scientists still have human brains, subject to all that is "mystical and unknowable", full blown or not.

Anecdotes are interesting, yet given the varied nature of crazy, not quite compelling.

From the article:
"In fact the number of such persons in today’s advanced society increases continuously and if they are not placed in psychiatric institutions they usually need constant assistance of competent psychiatric experts"

This might say something about such persons that have experienced such mystical events. Tongue

I'm just giving you shit, I can't discount that there is a ton of phenomena that happens in the world that can't be scientifically accounted for.

There are people (such as yourself) who are more inclined to "tune in" to the seemingly mystical forces of the universe. Then there are others who are not so inclined.

But give me a good reason to seek out unexplainable woo, and I might give it a bit more thought. For me at this point in my life, it doesn't figure in. Maybe someday it will, who knows?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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18-08-2013, 05:08 PM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2013 05:29 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Will God Ever Die?
(18-08-2013 03:32 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Scientists still have human brains, subject to all that is "mystical and unknowable", full blown or not.
Mystical experiences do not tell you what to think about them. They are free to interpret in any way you want. Which kind of pisses me off, because most of these people become Christians, even if there is nothing Christian about it.

(18-08-2013 03:32 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Anecdotes are interesting, yet given the varied nature of crazy, not quite compelling.
Nevermind anecdotes. Realize, for some people like me it is a day-to-day reality. Which is kind of a bummer, because some people's daily reality is so different from yours, that it's a different stable state of existence. Crazy is unstable. Mystical is a regular presence. It is like founding of another nation, another worldwide political movement, another kind of people who know on what page they're are. My sociologic gut is happy for that.

(18-08-2013 03:32 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  From the article:
"In fact the number of such persons in today’s advanced society increases continuously and if they are not placed in psychiatric institutions they usually need constant assistance of competent psychiatric experts"

This might say something about such persons that have experienced such mystical events. Tongue
Did you understand what was meant in the context? Imagine, that you go about your business and suddenly you get a mystical experience. Suddenly it's all love, all loves you and you love all, suddenly all is energy and that energy is love. Shit like that.
Now, what does a modern day Joe do? If he's stupid, he goes to his pastor, the pastor either gives him an exorcism or involves him in his fire of holy spirit healing sermons, depends on a church. If he's even more stupid, Joe goes to a psychiatrist to get checked. If he's lucky, the psychiatrist will send him home and tell him this is normal, because many such people already came to him and they're apparently healthy. Science knows nothing about it, but it's normal. If Joe is unlucky, he will become a permanent client of psychopharmacological industry, especially if the mystical experience showed him, how his job, his marriage and his political affiliation is all full of shit and he becomes depressed. Depression alone requires medication. And thus perfectly healthy people get themselves a madhouse ticket. Some more lucky jump onto the bandwagon of Christianity. Others hold their mouth shut. They suffer, because they are healthy and sane and the society is sick and insane.

That, my friend, is wrong. Our society is culturally exploding. We're getting so distant and we do not have these institutions that helped us to make sense of things. We don't have village shamans, village priests, cloisters and so on, we get to the church once per week, pass the plate and that's all. We got rid of old institutions, not because we didn't need them, but because they were unable to evolve. We need some new, better ones. Until we do, there will be lots of bewildered people going around, saying this scientific atheistic world is no good. I don't agree with them, but I see what they mean.

(18-08-2013 03:32 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  I'm just giving you shit, I can't discount that there is a ton of phenomena that happens in the world that can't be scientifically accounted for.

There are people (such as yourself) who are more inclined to "tune in" to the seemingly mystical forces of the universe. Then there are others who are not so inclined.

But give me a good reason to seek out unexplainable woo, and I might give it a bit more thought. For me at this point in my life, it doesn't figure in. Maybe someday it will, who knows?
Yes, that is a very reasonable attitude. This stuff is not easy or simple. It is an expansion of consciousness. You see on this forum that losing a faith and becoming a scientifically-minded atheist can turn your life upside down. And this is much more of a big deal. Much more thorough, it may make you lose your faith in almost everything. Most people do not become even ready until their 40's, they neglect themselves, their mind is a mess and there comes a midlife crisis, disaster, a few heart attacks and slow descent into senility. Neglecting this stuff completely kills some people. But so does jumping into it. I'm really a freak of nature that I take to it so young, but I know plenty of middle-aged folks in this business.
You see, this is what Zat, Ghost and a few other people around here are suffering from. They are very smart, but they have no vision. They can throw away the bullshit, but they do not know how to fill the emptiness. This creates a depression. I know that, because I face the same situation in personal life. But beyond personal life, in the society, all is clear to me.

You want a good reason? It gives people "superpowers". I got a superpower to recognize good ideas from bad ideas. I can smell bullshit a hundred yards, but I can also stop and smell the roses. I can feel the wind of change that sweeps across the society. I feel what is right and what is wrong, I don't need to live in fear that the next guy speaking in front of the crowd might be the next Hitler. I look at what he says and I see what he means. It's not like I invent anything, but there are some very obvious, beautiful and perfect principles I see and around these it is the best to build the society, if you want it to last indefinitely and make people happy. So far every regime that turned to be a disaster somehow violated one or more of these principles. It need not repeat. I know what is happiness, where it is coming from and why most people don't have it. I know the meaning of life. And I can see if people are on the same page.

Frankly, it spoils most of the fun with TV shows, movies and books, because very few authors have enlightened ideas enough for me to enjoy them. Most put across fairly basic moral lessons. Very few have anything new to teach me, but I have hell of a duty to teach people something. First thing to teach is that there is so much to learn and that it is wrong to say that "there is no meaning, we make our own meaning". If that is so, where is the glorious science, art and craft of meaning-making? Well, the closest thing to it is what I describe.

Admittedly, there are other "superpowers" to be had. There may be inspired scientists, inspired artists, inspired politicians, inspired parents... I would not be surprised if some top world's sportsmen were also involved in such experience. Unfortunately, it does not always mean these people will be completely free from delusion. They might think God says they are right. The more reason to start taking this more seriously.

The experience involves feeling lots of what can only be described as "energy" being fed and pressurized into the brain and spine and possibly the rest of the body, until it's all buzzing. The scientist Itzak Bentov described, that this energy gives cellular walls more coherence and effectively makes the brain behave as a condensate, a high temperature organic superconductor. I can only say, it certainly feels like that, it certainly does.
Man, if this is what we think it is, it's the new fire, new wheel, new computer science. The science of becoming better humans. Of finding what the hell does it mean to be human, and I don't mean taxonomically.
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18-08-2013, 06:56 PM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2013 09:26 PM by evenheathen.)
RE: Will God Ever Die?
Dude, first of all I don't think we've ever really engaged each other here on the forums, but I gotta say, I've always enjoyed your posts. As much as I'd like to state that a "rational mystic" is an oxymoron, you more than anyone I've encountered would prove that wrong. I dig your point of view on things, even if I don't quite agree or understand.
(18-08-2013 05:08 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Nevermind anecdotes. Realize, for some people like me it is a day-to-day reality.
Right on, good anecdote. Your day to day reality is not mine, it is yours. You will realize your reality much differently than I will mine.
(18-08-2013 05:08 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Crazy is unstable. Mystical is a regular presence.
I know plenty of crazy people who can lead happy, stable lives. I'm pretty sure that the line between mystical and crazy is obscured beyond recognition. You will recognize extremes, but the middle ground will come in all shapes, sizes and colors. I know you fancy your experience to be quite lucid and real, and I'm not sure that a crazy person wouldn't also. Just sayin'....
(18-08-2013 05:08 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Did you understand what was meant in the context? Imagine, that you go about your business and suddenly you get a mystical experience. Suddenly it's all love, all loves you and you love all, suddenly all is energy and that energy is love. Shit like that.
I can imagine that all day long, and still not know what the fuck it would be like to have a truly mystical experience. (beyond my experiences with substances known to cause such states Tongue)

That being said, we will never be on the same page unless something like that were to happen to me.
(18-08-2013 05:08 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Our society is culturally exploding. We're getting so distant and we do not have these institutions that helped us to make sense of things. We don't have village shamans, village priests, cloisters and so on, we get to the church once per week, pass the plate and that's all. We got rid of old institutions, not because we didn't need them, but because they were unable to evolve. We need some new, better ones. Until we do, there will be lots of bewildered people going around, saying this scientific atheistic world is no good. I don't agree with them, but I see what they mean.

I can appreciate your point of view. But you have a very different mindset and tolerance for this stuff than most atheists. I'm still relatively new to this skeptical mindset and a worldview that makes so much more sense without a god than it ever did with one. You'll have to forgive me but I'm just now in my life getting my head wrapped around the fact that mysticism and woo and god and all of that shit means nothing to me if it can't produce a substantial sense of tangible meaning in my life.

(18-08-2013 05:08 PM)Luminon Wrote:  But beyond personal life, in the society, all is clear to me.
I'm happy for you, but your clarity (and apparent lack of ability to clue in anyone else here) doesn't do much for me, besides providing a fresh viewpoint on philosophical debates.
(18-08-2013 05:08 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I know the meaning of life.
Do tell. I'm sure you have a good grasp on the meaning of your life, I'd like to hear what mine is. I have plenty of meaning in my life, I'm actually quite content as far as meaning goes. But I can't say I've nailed down "the" meaning of life, and it's okay with me if I never do. Life is good enough even without the number 42.
(18-08-2013 05:08 PM)Luminon Wrote:  The experience involves feeling lots of what can only be described as "energy" being fed and pressurized into the brain and spine and possibly the rest of the body, until it's all buzzing. The scientist Itzak Bentov described, that this energy gives cellular walls more coherence and effectively makes the brain behave as a condensate, a high temperature organic superconductor. I can only say, it certainly feels like that, it certainly does.

I don't want to cheapen your experience, and by all means it is great in my opinion that your life is deepened and heightened and fulfilled by this experience of "energy".

The fact remains that I don't experience it. The majority of people don't experience it. By becoming an atheist I didn't choose to close my mind to the possibility that there are "forces" or "energies" out there (or in here). In fact, interestingly enough the Higgs Boson raises my atheistic eyebrow to the idea that there is a greater force out there. A "first mover" or what have you. By my logic, if a god or force existed outside of our space-time, any ability to effect our universe would necessarily have to be observable at some level in our world. Here we have a theory of some invisible, cosmic "plasma field" that gives rise to the material aspect of our universe. Low and behold, it takes smashing atomic particles into other atomic particles at almost light speed to do it, but we physically observe this absurd theory in actuality. Kinda freaky if you ask me. But as of yet, no deity has jumped out and hollered "alright, you got me!". So atheism (and skepticism) remains intact.

Again, I don't doubt that you do experience a more heightened reality than most. But again, most of the well known anecdotal examples of stuff like this in human history have mental disorders to explain for their revelations. I'm not trying to say that you do, but is it not within reason to entertain the idea that perhaps it's all in your head?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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19-08-2013, 02:48 PM (This post was last modified: 19-08-2013 03:41 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Will God Ever Die?
(18-08-2013 06:56 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Dude, first of all I don't think we've ever really engaged each other here on the forums, but I gotta say, I've always enjoyed your posts. As much as I'd like to state that a "rational mystic" is an oxymoron, you more than anyone I've encountered would prove that wrong. I dig your point of view on things, even if I don't quite agree or understand.
I'm so glad! I get so little feedback!

(18-08-2013 06:56 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  I can imagine that all day long, and still not know what the fuck it would be like to have a truly mystical experience. (beyond my experiences with substances known to cause such states Tongue)

That being said, we will never be on the same page unless something like that were to happen to me.
That's exactly right on. J. M. Cohen calls it "The Common Experience". It's almost like a secret handshake. People who got it all across history used to found secret societies and more esoteric versions of their own local religions. I suspect many of them lobbied their way into writing texts in the Bible. Bible is to some degree a time capsule, a message board of mystics, madmen and emperors. Some stories, some rubbish, and among it little tidbits of the common experience.

As for the substance use, there are buttons in the brain and we can push them by ingesting the substances. However, we can also let the brain be, calm down our mind and let something else push these buttons. What is this something else, that's one of these big mysteries that I have no evidence for. I just say it's the same thing for everyone and most people call it god. This is why there's always many believers in god, other words don't fit, unless they want to get all new agey.
When I meet believers, I always try to find out if they're just repeating their childhood religion, or they're based on this experience. Often both.

(18-08-2013 06:56 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  I can appreciate your point of view. But you have a very different mindset and tolerance for this stuff than most atheists. I'm still relatively new to this skeptical mindset and a worldview that makes so much more sense without a god than it ever did with one. You'll have to forgive me but I'm just now in my life getting my head wrapped around the fact that mysticism and woo and god and all of that shit means nothing to me if it can't produce a substantial sense of tangible meaning in my life.
That's all right dude. You have to get rid of the religious crap to get some breathing room. I like atheists, I like to listen to their stories and Seth's podcasts. It feels so good to be on the right side of the burden of proof and to have tangible evidence! Smile Debunking bunkum is one of great joys in life. I believe science has the power to unite humanity, it produces agreement in a tangible way. Science. It works, bitches. Of course, there's nothing for me to do in mainstream science, it's pretty much a global industrial effort. Quaternary economic sector, you know. So I prefer fringes, where an individual still matters.

It might be of interest to you what esotericism says about science, as a curiosity. It's kind of a big deal, one of basic principles of life. I wouldn't have it any other way.

(18-08-2013 06:56 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Do tell. I'm sure you have a good grasp on the meaning of your life, I'd like to hear what mine is. I have plenty of meaning in my life, I'm actually quite content as far as meaning goes. But I can't say I've nailed down "the" meaning of life, and it's okay with me if I never do. Life is good enough even without the number 42.

Look here.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...human-life
The meaning of humanity is rather general, so it fits on everyone. It means to get inspired (esoterically speaking) and then express the inspiration somehow.
However, we are all different, all specialized, and so this expression always takes different forms. For example, I am not an artist, scientist, believer or leader. I'd probably do a good professor, politician, policymaker and some jobs that are not invented yet.

Much humanity is still mystically, inwardly oriented, they kind of used to take the feely goody short path of liberation. But that should mostly change, with development of society based on intellectual faculties and purposefully expressed emotions, instead of the present consumerist chaos. What we see now is a feedback loop of average content.

(18-08-2013 06:56 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  I don't want to cheapen your experience, and by all means it is great in my opinion that your life is deepened and heightened and fulfilled by this experience of "energy".

The fact remains that I don't experience it. The majority of people don't experience it. By becoming an atheist I didn't choose to close my mind to the possibility that there are "forces" or "energies" out there (or in here). In fact, interestingly enough the Higgs Boson raises my atheistic eyebrow to the idea that there is a greater force out there. A "first mover" or what have you. By my logic, if a god or force existed outside of our space-time, any ability to effect our universe would necessarily have to be observable at some level in our world. Here we have a theory of some invisible, cosmic "plasma field" that gives rise to the material aspect of our universe. Low and behold, it takes smashing atomic particles into other atomic particles at almost light speed to do it, but we physically observe this absurd theory in actuality. Kinda freaky if you ask me. But as of yet, no deity has jumped out and hollered "alright, you got me!". So atheism (and skepticism) remains intact.

Well, it was kinda like that with me, a "deity" jumped into my consciousness one day in meditation and started coming for visits and then I realized that this "deity" is something that I am a part of. But that's not cosmologic. Just sayin', so you know that I don't expect any deity to jump at us out of some nebula. Immanent is the place to look for. However, the experience of religious freedom is so good that it can last you till the end of this incarnation and there's nothing wrong about it. It is probably the right thing to do, that makes you more spiritual than otherwise.
What I experience can to a great degree work unconsciously beneath your perception, specially for well-rounded personalities. There are people much more spiritually advanced than me, who are not aware of it. It's a question of bodily and neurological equipment, of personality, interests or inward/outward focus. Often this awareness is a result of some kind of disability, that forces attention this way. Awareness is not special, control and self-control over is special, and that may be subconscious.

When I look at the attempts of physicists to discover something, I must wonder if they've got it all wrong. What if they are not enquiring into the basics of the universe? They seem to have an "inside out" model of the universe. What if the model is "outside" in? If our universe is a manifested illusion, do they just deepen the illusion with concentrating more energy? It's like when you press a sheet of paper together, you exert a given force and you know it will create two bumps up and one down and you call them two up quarks and one down quark. It's correct, it's predictable, but it does not tell you anything about the nature of paper. You can smash particles together all the way to Planck length and create new ones, but they will be your creations governed by the laws of mathematics. Ultimately the scientists will reach a limit, see that this menagerie of particles is not self-powered and there must be some sort of substrate that keeps it going. It is a long and perilous way to this realization, but better late than never.
There are other lines of research I would take to lift the veil of material illusion sooner and easier, but funding committees have a known bias towards big, expensive and high-energetic projects. It gives them a feeling that something is being done.

(18-08-2013 06:56 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Again, I don't doubt that you do experience a more heightened reality than most. But again, most of the well known anecdotal examples of stuff like this in human history have mental disorders to explain for their revelations. I'm not trying to say that you do, but is it not within reason to entertain the idea that perhaps it's all in your head?
You are very tolerant and considerate. I have met people who did not hesitate to call me a bullshitter of all mental diseases and subversive intentions. Luckily, they burned out of all the hate and left the forum. An improvement for everyone, I'm sure.

Yes, the delusional human nature is a known problem and we're working on it. It has a lot to do with our evolutionary heritage, emotional and instinctive equipment. If most humanity became atheists to counter this influence, it would be worth it. Atheism and skepticism is very valuable in controlling the primitive, animalistic form of "clairvoyance" that is today often sold as a new thing. It's not new, it's a vestigial anachronism, blocking the way of real development of consciousness. It is difficult to invent machines and build civilizations, if people hear voices of their supposed ancestors in their head, telling them not to bother and do things the good old way Wink
I assure you, the emotional nature is knowable, it is predictable and distinct. It's quite a hard lesson to learn to distinguish it, but it can be learned.

I was always lucky to have so... low-level, sensory perception, that it was not subject to interpretation. People who hear voices have ways to interpret them (including medically!). But people like me, who feel very clear, simple and distinct sensations of the energetic fields and streams inside and outside don't face the same problem. They're not ambiguous. Over the years I have experienced cases when people projected these energetic fields without telling me first, or I did without telling them. And we noticed. There are other examples, but that would be for a long time.
The instinctive "clairvoyance" that majority of people is prone to, is notoriously unreliable, because it is controlled by emotions. I can get the same sensation under any state of emotion or intoxication or sobriety, doesn't matter. That makes things much simplier.
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