Will God Ever Die?
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19-08-2013, 03:38 PM
RE: Will God Ever Die?
double post error, sorry
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19-08-2013, 03:57 PM (This post was last modified: 19-08-2013 09:19 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Will God Ever Die?
Thought it already went all suicide bomber and blew the shit out of itself going on some 14 billion years ago now out of sheer boredom.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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19-08-2013, 08:51 PM
RE: Will God Ever Die?
(19-08-2013 02:48 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Well, it was kinda like that with me, a "deity" jumped into my consciousness one day in meditation and started coming for visits and then I realized that this "deity" is something that I am a part of.

I'd be interested to hear a bit more about this, if you'd care to go into it that is.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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19-08-2013, 09:58 PM
RE: Will God Ever Die?
From what I've observed, most Christians are very stubborn and resilient. I think most people will cling on to their religion for as long as possible because it's easier that way. It's easier to use God as an explanation for the unknown and saying that there's someone "up there" watching over you gives you a good feeling. I also know that many of my friends will use the explanation of "It was in God's plan" or "God has His reasons" for when things go wrong in their lives. And everyone loves the idea that one day they'll get to see their loved ones again. People are also scared of death and God helps ease that fear. I think people will hold onto religion until it becomes more difficult than not having one. I don't think religion will every die out completely, but I do think that eventually one day people who do believe in a god will be few and far between.
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20-08-2013, 09:21 AM
RE: Will God Ever Die?
I don't understand what is so comforting about the belief that there is some asshole watching every move you make for your entire life like a supernatural pervert who will eternally punish you for doing what's in the nature that he gave you.

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20-08-2013, 01:24 PM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2013 01:31 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Will God Ever Die?
(I can't believe I'm still on topic Tongue )

(19-08-2013 08:51 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(19-08-2013 02:48 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Well, it was kinda like that with me, a "deity" jumped into my consciousness one day in meditation and started coming for visits and then I realized that this "deity" is something that I am a part of.

I'd be interested to hear a bit more about this, if you'd care to go into it that is.
Why not? It was about 5 years ago. I was doing a kind of group meditation that is said to be an extremely powerful tool of personal development, released for this age to help getting humanity across the present crises. Technically-esoteric process, nothing with obvious causality, that would back up this claim. But I know in the beginning it used to make my head hurt as if stuck on red-hot wires. As I said, powerful stuff.

Meditation involves calming down all emotion, imagination and sensations, ignore all disturbances. So in deep meditation, one is the best kind of observer, free from second-guessing and reactions that we normally have. This was when I got a feeling. I felt a foreign presence in my mind. And I felt that this presence loves me, unconditionally. That is all, there was nothing personal about this. Just this distinct presence and unconditional love.

Some months later I started having this sensation during daytime, when I was not meditating. Gradually, this foreign presence kind of shifted in focus and disappeared, now it was me, who was the one loving unconditionally. The love went towards everything and at the same time nothing in particular, without a subject, only love, no love of or love for. I could go on weeks like that, it started in the morning, continued all day long. It wasn't for whole year though, usually in the winter time.

This, with continued meditation has been a great help for becoming aware of my personal problems and dealing with them. It is a moving tale of discovery and depression, but not really related to what you ask. What you ask is a universal human phenomenon, not related to any kind of personality. Of course, a desperate, obsessive personality like me is much more motivated to pursue it. More well-rounded people, more able to enjoy life don't need to go through such measures at the stage they're in. They can take more gradual steps. The process that I went through is technically described in esoteric literature, but I went through it in a rather unusual, "reverse" way, intense way, dangerous for physical and mental endurance. I found most information in the footnotes and exceptions, than in the main text.
This is why I can not fully generalize for other people, I can't judge the speed of their personal development and there is much of the dimensions of life that I am missing.
However, in milder or harsher form this is basically what also happened to a few friends of mine. They went through a personal crisis. This crisis endangered their way of living (and possibly health). And into the subsequent void, the impersonal, loving transcendent/immanent object appeared, destroyed their self-image, took over and merged with the personality to some degree, letting the process continue into a new way of living. I only know that with me first came meditation, then the presence, then the crisis. It's not like the presence came as a response to crisis, as an imaginary friend, not at all. I was OK, or I thought I was OK. OK, I knew something was a little wrong with me, but I didn't have the slightest fuckin' idea how much. If you think questioning whether God and heaven is real is a big deal, try questioning who and what you are.

Nowadays I'd say with some degree of surprise, that I identify with the presence to a greater degree, than with my old self. I can't imagine the presence as I used to, as separate thing. It became a state of mind, that I do my best to spend the most time in, or do activities that allow me to have this state of mind, which by the way I gives me great source of proverbial energy for them.

I'd say most Christians limit themselves by placing God on pedestal, above and beyond them. But I met a couple of impressive Christians who were mystics at heart and their union was rather complete and not limited by Church dogma. While most Christians worship the God transcendent, they also communed with God immanent.
I know this sounds like a religious propaganda, but me and the people I know are not religious nor Christian. We went through a crisis and something weird happened and goes on. I'd say religions were founded to describe this process, but in 20th century we got Jungian and transcendental psychology. However, the only source I found describing this process in clear, technical terms is Alice Bailey's Theosophy and her interpretation of Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. Of course they are written in a language that can be understood and believed only by those actually having this experience. It's not a text for any random stranger reading it. Itzak Bentov is an exception in translating this process into neuro-biology without Patanjali's or Jung's focus on personal development.
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20-08-2013, 02:44 PM
RE: Will God Ever Die?
(20-08-2013 01:24 PM)Luminon Wrote:  (I can't believe I'm still on topic Tongue )

(19-08-2013 08:51 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  I'd be interested to hear a bit more about this, if you'd care to go into it that is.
Why not? It was about 5 years ago. I was doing a kind of group meditation that is said to be an extremely powerful tool of personal development, released for this age to help getting humanity across the present crises. Technically-esoteric process, nothing with obvious causality, that would back up this claim. But I know in the beginning it used to make my head hurt as if stuck on red-hot wires. As I said, powerful stuff.

Meditation involves calming down all emotion, imagination and sensations, ignore all disturbances. So in deep meditation, one is the best kind of observer, free from second-guessing and reactions that we normally have. This was when I got a feeling. I felt a foreign presence in my mind. And I felt that this presence loves me, unconditionally. That is all, there was nothing personal about this. Just this distinct presence and unconditional love.

Some months later I started having this sensation during daytime, when I was not meditating. Gradually, this foreign presence kind of shifted in focus and disappeared, now it was me, who was the one loving unconditionally. The love went towards everything and at the same time nothing in particular, without a subject, only love, no love of or love for. I could go on weeks like that, it started in the morning, continued all day long. It wasn't for whole year though, usually in the winter time.

This, with continued meditation has been a great help for becoming aware of my personal problems and dealing with them. It is a moving tale of discovery and depression, but not really related to what you ask. What you ask is a universal human phenomenon, not related to any kind of personality. Of course, a desperate, obsessive personality like me is much more motivated to pursue it. More well-rounded people, more able to enjoy life don't need to go through such measures at the stage they're in. They can take more gradual steps. The process that I went through is technically described in esoteric literature, but I went through it in a rather unusual, "reverse" way, intense way, dangerous for physical and mental endurance. I found most information in the footnotes and exceptions, than in the main text.
This is why I can not fully generalize for other people, I can't judge the speed of their personal development and there is much of the dimensions of life that I am missing.
However, in milder or harsher form this is basically what also happened to a few friends of mine. They went through a personal crisis. This crisis endangered their way of living (and possibly health). And into the subsequent void, the impersonal, loving transcendent/immanent object appeared, destroyed their self-image, took over and merged with the personality to some degree, letting the process continue into a new way of living. I only know that with me first came meditation, then the presence, then the crisis. It's not like the presence came as a response to crisis, as an imaginary friend, not at all. I was OK, or I thought I was OK. OK, I knew something was a little wrong with me, but I didn't have the slightest fuckin' idea how much. If you think questioning whether God and heaven is real is a big deal, try questioning who and what you are.

Nowadays I'd say with some degree of surprise, that I identify with the presence to a greater degree, than with my old self. I can't imagine the presence as I used to, as separate thing. It became a state of mind, that I do my best to spend the most time in, or do activities that allow me to have this state of mind, which by the way I gives me great source of proverbial energy for them.

I'd say most Christians limit themselves by placing God on pedestal, above and beyond them. But I met a couple of impressive Christians who were mystics at heart and their union was rather complete and not limited by Church dogma. While most Christians worship the God transcendent, they also communed with God immanent.
I know this sounds like a religious propaganda, but me and the people I know are not religious nor Christian. We went through a crisis and something weird happened and goes on. I'd say religions were founded to describe this process, but in 20th century we got Jungian and transcendental psychology. However, the only source I found describing this process in clear, technical terms is Alice Bailey's Theosophy and her interpretation of Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. Of course they are written in a language that can be understood and believed only by those actually having this experience. It's not a text for any random stranger reading it. Itzak Bentov is an exception in translating this process into neuro-biology without Patanjali's or Jung's focus on personal development.

Interesting. Well at any rate, I'm glad that you've found a peace in this life, wherever it may come from.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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15-09-2013, 01:04 PM (This post was last modified: 15-09-2013 02:45 PM by kim.)
RE: Will God Ever Die?
God? What God?
Contemplating the demise of tales of ancient, superstitious old farmers' has been going on since those stories began to be written down... it's why they were written down in the first place. People thought, "Ha - those goofy old farmers equate wind with a god and/or rain with a god, etc.,. Hey, we have this new way to "remember" stuff so, let's see how far this new "writing" technology can carry those ridiculous stories. No harm, no foul."

Not like there was any direct observation going on with these stories ... a lot of interpretation... and edit after edit after edit. This has been such a distraction that to change any of it's aftermath, humans have to relearn how to live - with each other and with the planet.

A lot of things we refer to as the first scribblings of history are really just a crude form of Wikipedia. Much of "history" as we know it, has been pretty much dependent on behavioral decisions derived from hearsay, at best. It's no wonder people continue to clamor for "truth" as if it will be something "new". The only "new" thing will be is if we drop everything and just start asking different questions of ourselves.

Millions and millions of years ago, our ancestors looked up at the stars and wondered what we are, what we are doing here, and where we might go. We've been sidetracked much too long... but, the stars are still waiting to resume an interesting conversation. Probably ought to get on that. Drinking Beverage

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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15-09-2013, 10:54 PM (This post was last modified: 16-09-2013 10:55 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Will God Ever Die?
I'm of the opinion that we are a species that has an imagination, and evolution molded that into a superstition creation engine in a bid for survive-ability. The very process of rational thought is not only something that we were not evolved to do, we were evolved to do the exact opposite. We have millions of years to ingrain into the very core of our being our penchant for making false positives. When our ancestors dropped out of the trees on the African Savannah we did not have the strength, the speed, the eyesight, the teeth, or the claws of the other fully adapted ground predators. We had our communities and our imaginations, and the the most paranoid were the most likely to survive. Seeing the lion in the shadow that isn't there is more likely to keep you alive than not seeing the one that is there. The odds must be thousands to one against, but all you need is that one to save your life; instincts are frighteningly often wrong.

How long will it take us to break that cycle? We have millions of years of evolution on our shoulders that have molded us into creatures that use our own imagination in ways that are not always logical or rational, because survival isn't always rational or logical. As long as humans have enough imagination to fear death, superstitions will survive. We might eventually get past god concepts, but the death of superstition won't happen until we get over our fear of death.


Or put in another way; we were scared, we are scared, and we are continuing to be scared...









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15-09-2013, 11:09 PM
RE: Will God Ever Die?
Will God ever die?

I don't know, will human weakness ever die? Probably not.

God is the thing we invent when we don't like result of not inventing him.

Don't sell yourself short Judge, you're an incredible slouch.

Martin Luther was the "father" of two movements - The Reformation and Nazism.
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