William Lane Craig and the Gallop
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04-02-2013, 10:45 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2013 01:28 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: William Lane Craig and the Gallop
(04-02-2013 03:47 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 02:54 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...outh-again
In case that ISN'T enough, here's some proof he's a lying SOB.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ight=Craig see post # 39 .
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ght=Ehrman


Point taken, but to talk about (any) temporal "reality" *before* spacetime is meaningless, so unfortunately this video is making one of the same errors that Craig makes. Of course, very recently Carig has been lecturing about his "tensed" and non-tensed time. But if you listen, he really has no real different definition. It's just a rehash of how a god could "act", (an action REQUIRES time), and solves nothing.

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04-02-2013, 10:55 PM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2013 10:58 PM by Julius.)
RE: William Lane Craig and the Gallop
I've read a bit of Vilinken - the BVG Paper and his book entitled, "Many Worlds in One". He's a great intellect, but ya' know what? Nothing the man has predicted has been verified by experiment or observation. The man may be brilliant, but he is speculating about things that we will not be able to confirm for a very long time. Therefore, I think that to use any of his works or theorums to make a point about fact is both wildly premature and disingenuous. As a result, I take Vilinkens work about as seriously as I do String Theory - a branch of Physics that has never produced a single testable prediction.

As a result, I am not surprised that Craig uses Vilinken and String Theory so liberally because...Shit, ya' can't even prove them either wrong or right - and that's a wonderful place to hide for an apologist!
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05-02-2013, 12:24 AM
RE: William Lane Craig and the Gallop
(04-02-2013 10:55 PM)Julius Wrote:  As a result, I take Vilinkens work about as seriously as I do String Theory - a branch of Physics that has never produced a single testable prediction.


Isn't the ability to make testable and verifiable predictions one of the hallmarks of a scientific theory?

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05-02-2013, 01:12 AM
RE: William Lane Craig and the Gallop
(04-02-2013 10:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  To talk about (any) temporal "reality" *before* spacetime is meaningless.

I'm not sure that your observation follows.
Something I think of when you say this is the Higgs Particle.
Not that the Higgs is something that we can talk about "before" spacetime, but that we are still talking about something.

So far, with the Higgs, we haven't quite made it to the absolute beginning.
I'm wondering if Science will ever be able to get to the bottom of the causation of a Universe at the very conception of time (noted: each dually dependent on the other).

For a while it seemed that the Higgs Particle had answered the question of the Universe. That is, until you notice that it's difficult to talk about anything "before" spacetime.
So we're stuck again..
The higgs would be a thing (called nothing), that we are talking about.
It seems that this natural occurence still requires time, which is required for any "action".
If this Higgs does not reguire time, then it has as much special pleading as the notion of an intelligent metaphysical being.


(04-02-2013 10:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It's just a rehash of how a god could "act", (an action REQUIRES time), and solves nothing.

The action only requires time, if time is the restriction of the action.

So far, the only objects within time - are in the Universe.

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05-02-2013, 01:33 AM (This post was last modified: 24-04-2013 01:37 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: William Lane Craig and the Gallop
(05-02-2013 01:12 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 10:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  To talk about (any) temporal "reality" *before* spacetime is meaningless.

I'm not sure that your observation follows.
Something I think of when you say this is the Higgs Particle.
Not that the Higgs is something that we can talk about "before" spacetime, but that we are still talking about something.

So far, with the Higgs, we haven't quite made it to the absolute beginning.
I'm wondering if Science will ever be able to get to the bottom of the causation of a Universe at the very conception of time (noted: each dually dependent on the other).

For a while it seemed that the Higgs Particle had answered the question of the Universe. That is, until you notice that it's difficult to talk about anything "before" spacetime.
So we're stuck again..
The higgs would be a thing (called nothing), that we are talking about.
It seems that this natural occurence still requires time, which is required for any "action".
If this Higgs does not reguire time, then it has as much special pleading as the notion of an intelligent metaphysical being.


(04-02-2013 10:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It's just a rehash of how a god could "act", (an action REQUIRES time), and solves nothing.

The action only requires time, if time is the restriction of the action.

So far, the only objects within time - are in the Universe.
It appears you do not inderstand the Higgs field, or the Higgs particle. It answered none on the questions you suggest. It simply completed the Standard Model. and yes we are stuck, and stuck we shall remain until there is evidence for something. ISIS and WMAP may show ripples which may be interrepted as evidence for other universes, until then, to posit that space ot time exists other than inn this universe is not possible. And you can talk about any hypothetical anything without the restrictions of anything. It's all fantasy until the evidence is provided. And no, so far the only spacetime is in the universe. You have it backwards.

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Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (KJV)

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05-02-2013, 05:11 AM
RE: William Lane Craig and the Gallop
(05-02-2013 12:24 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(04-02-2013 10:55 PM)Julius Wrote:  As a result, I take Vilinkens work about as seriously as I do String Theory - a branch of Physics that has never produced a single testable prediction.


Isn't the ability to make testable and verifiable predictions one of the hallmarks of a scientific theory?
String Theory refers to a field of study, not an actual Scientific Theory. Thus, String Theory is just a Hypothesis at best - and not even a very good one.

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05-02-2013, 07:06 AM
RE: William Lane Craig and the Gallop
(05-02-2013 05:11 AM)Julius Wrote:  
(05-02-2013 12:24 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Isn't the ability to make testable and verifiable predictions one of the hallmarks of a scientific theory?
String Theory refers to a field of study, not an actual Scientific Theory. Thus, String Theory is just a Hypothesis at best - and not even a very good one.

[Image: string_theory.png]

Fair enough.

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05-02-2013, 04:06 PM
RE: William Lane Craig and the Gallop
Another fun dig at kalam.



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