William Lane Craig's Q&A Polytheism 2.0
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12-01-2012, 03:55 PM
 
William Lane Craig's Q&A Polytheism 2.0
Another thread mentioned WLC. I went to his website and found this Q&A that is most intresting. I have commented on some, i'll leave the rest for you guys!

Question:

Question 247

Hello Dr. Craig. You are an inspiration to us all in defending Christianity in such a humble manner. You may just like to answer one question but if so you wish and time allows it would be nice to hear your thoughts on all the questions I have asked. My question(s) to you are:

1/ You believe that Jesus was God, so what does the Bible tell us as to the reason why God himself died on the cross?

2/ When Jesus was baptized and ascended from the waters God said "You are my beloved son in whom i am well pleased" Was God pleased with himself?

3/ Jesus ascended to heaven and sits at the right hand of God. Does God sit next to himself?

4/ Jesus said the "Father is greater than I". Can God be greater than himself?

5/ At certain times Jesus prays to his father and also prays to his Father in private. Does God pray to himself and pray to himself in secret and why?

6/ We always read Jesus is the 'Son of God'. We never ever read 'God the Son'. Why is this?

7/ Why do you think that the Bible mentions that Jesus is our true high priest and mediator between God and man?

8/ Why do you think that God sent an angel to strengthen Jesus before he was to die on the cross?

9/ Jesus is the seed of David. If Jesus was God do you think God is the seed of David and by what logic?

So you have probably realised by now that I certainly don't believe a Trinitarian view, because I don't believe for a moment that it is taught in the Bible. It would be nice to hear your thoughts to these answers and possibly engage in future discussion on this most important part of the gospel message in the Bible, that being Jesus is the 'Son of God' and not 'God the Son'.

Best Regards

Michael
U.K.



Dr. Craig responds:

Your questions are obviously disingenuous, Michael, and I wouldn’t normally have chosen them except that these are the same sort of simple-minded objections which Muslims have been taught to repeat as refutations of Christian theism. Therefore, for the sake of our numerous Muslim readers, and unitarians everywhere, I’ll say a brief word about each question.

1. Crucial to an understanding of the Christian doctrine of Christ is that the incarnate Christ had two natures, one human and one divine. When Christ died he did so, not in his divine nature but in his human nature, i.e., his soul was separated from his human body. He gave his human life as a sacrifice for sin to redeem us from sins.

2. Equally crucial to an understanding of Christian doctrine is that God is three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Thus, at the baptism of Jesus, as at many other junctures, what you have is the Father’s speaking to the Son. Confusion can arise because often in the New Testament the Father is spoken of simply as “God” rather than as “God the Father.”

Polytheism, plain and simple!! They can try and dance around it but when you have 3 persons...its 3 persons. I am not 3 persons.

3. The Son sits next to the Father. This metaphor is a way of expressing the exaltation of Christ, the right hand being a position of authority and honor.

4. Again the Son is speaking of the Father, probably with respect to his state of humiliation during his incarnate life. But however you interpret the Father’s being greater than the Son, two persons are being spoken of, so there is no contradiction.

Again, TWO persons, polytheism

5. The Son prays to the Father. He is not talking to himself; two distinct persons are involved. During his state of humiliation, in which Jesus was subjected to the human condition, he needed to rely moment by moment of his heavenly Father and on the Holy Spirit to discharge his mission. He thereby becomes our model and example.

and again, polytheism...i thought there was to be no gods before him..oops!

6. “Son of God” is typical for Judaism. It is not, in fact, the most important of the divine titles ascribed to Christ. What you do have in the New Testament is amazing expressions like “the only begotten God” (John 1.18) for Jesus and other cases of his being called “God.” (See Murray Harris, Jesus as God [Baker: 1992]).

7. In his human nature Christ is both the sacrifice for our sin and the high priest who offers that sacrifice to God the Father.

8. As explained, in his human nature Jesus was just like you and me and so needed strengthening to carry out his dreadful task.

9. Jesus’ human nature is David’s seed, that is to say, Jesus’ human lineage traced back to David, as a DNA analysis could have revealed.

But DNA CANT reveal it as we have no body or a single hair if evidence to get DNA from. So why use a DNA example when it has no real bearing on your answer. Not to mention why bother with the David bloodline...it was the Holy Ghost who squirted his joy juice in Mary...why dont we get the Holy Ghost was begat by..who was begat by...who was....

YOUR TURN!!!!
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12-01-2012, 04:50 PM
RE: William Lane Craig's Q&A Polytheism 2.0
(12-01-2012 03:55 PM)Denicio Wrote:  Another thread mentioned WLC. I went to his website and found this Q&A that is most intresting. I have commented on some, i'll leave the rest for you guys!

Question:

Question 247

Hello Dr. Craig. You are an inspiration to us all in defending Christianity in such a humble manner. You may just like to answer one question but if so you wish and time allows it would be nice to hear your thoughts on all the questions I have asked. My question(s) to you are:

1/ You believe that Jesus was God, so what does the Bible tell us as to the reason why God himself died on the cross?

2/ When Jesus was baptized and ascended from the waters God said "You are my beloved son in whom i am well pleased" Was God pleased with himself?

3/ Jesus ascended to heaven and sits at the right hand of God. Does God sit next to himself?

4/ Jesus said the "Father is greater than I". Can God be greater than himself?

5/ At certain times Jesus prays to his father and also prays to his Father in private. Does God pray to himself and pray to himself in secret and why?

6/ We always read Jesus is the 'Son of God'. We never ever read 'God the Son'. Why is this?

7/ Why do you think that the Bible mentions that Jesus is our true high priest and mediator between God and man?

8/ Why do you think that God sent an angel to strengthen Jesus before he was to die on the cross?

9/ Jesus is the seed of David. If Jesus was God do you think God is the seed of David and by what logic?

So you have probably realised by now that I certainly don't believe a Trinitarian view, because I don't believe for a moment that it is taught in the Bible. It would be nice to hear your thoughts to these answers and possibly engage in future discussion on this most important part of the gospel message in the Bible, that being Jesus is the 'Son of God' and not 'God the Son'.

Best Regards

Michael
U.K.



Dr. Craig responds:

Your questions are obviously disingenuous, Michael, and I wouldn’t normally have chosen them except that these are the same sort of simple-minded objections which Muslims have been taught to repeat as refutations of Christian theism. Therefore, for the sake of our numerous Muslim readers, and unitarians everywhere, I’ll say a brief word about each question.

1. Crucial to an understanding of the Christian doctrine of Christ is that the incarnate Christ had two natures, one human and one divine. When Christ died he did so, not in his divine nature but in his human nature, i.e., his soul was separated from his human body. He gave his human life as a sacrifice for sin to redeem us from sins.

2. Equally crucial to an understanding of Christian doctrine is that God is three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Thus, at the baptism of Jesus, as at many other junctures, what you have is the Father’s speaking to the Son. Confusion can arise because often in the New Testament the Father is spoken of simply as “God” rather than as “God the Father.”

Polytheism, plain and simple!! They can try and dance around it but when you have 3 persons...its 3 persons. I am not 3 persons.

3. The Son sits next to the Father. This metaphor is a way of expressing the exaltation of Christ, the right hand being a position of authority and honor.

4. Again the Son is speaking of the Father, probably with respect to his state of humiliation during his incarnate life. But however you interpret the Father’s being greater than the Son, two persons are being spoken of, so there is no contradiction.

Again, TWO persons, polytheism

5. The Son prays to the Father. He is not talking to himself; two distinct persons are involved. During his state of humiliation, in which Jesus was subjected to the human condition, he needed to rely moment by moment of his heavenly Father and on the Holy Spirit to discharge his mission. He thereby becomes our model and example.

and again, polytheism...i thought there was to be no gods before him..oops!

6. “Son of God” is typical for Judaism. It is not, in fact, the most important of the divine titles ascribed to Christ. What you do have in the New Testament is amazing expressions like “the only begotten God” (John 1.18) for Jesus and other cases of his being called “God.” (See Murray Harris, Jesus as God [Baker: 1992]).

7. In his human nature Christ is both the sacrifice for our sin and the high priest who offers that sacrifice to God the Father.

8. As explained, in his human nature Jesus was just like you and me and so needed strengthening to carry out his dreadful task.

9. Jesus’ human nature is David’s seed, that is to say, Jesus’ human lineage traced back to David, as a DNA analysis could have revealed.

But DNA CANT reveal it as we have no body or a single hair if evidence to get DNA from. So why use a DNA example when it has no real bearing on your answer. Not to mention why bother with the David bloodline...it was the Holy Ghost who squirted his joy juice in Mary...why dont we get the Holy Ghost was begat by..who was begat by...who was....

YOUR TURN!!!!
Dr Craig.
Christian apologists will sink to any depth of inept, speculative analysis of scripture to get their highly dubious points across. For example Spong, Cupid, et al, all but dispense of scripture, yet still call themselves Christian.

As for the God/Jesus/Holy Spirit nexus; it does sound like polytheism.
If Christians were to project themselves into the now and aspire to the more humane teachings of Jesus.............forget the escatology, and nuancing I believe they would be happier and more productive.
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12-01-2012, 09:53 PM
RE: William Lane Craig's Q&A Polytheism 2.0
(12-01-2012 04:50 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  If Christians were to project themselves into the now and aspire to the more humane teachings of Jesus.............forget the escatology, and nuancing I believe they would be happier and more productive.

So true.

Does anyone else think it's ironic that Jesus seemed to be one of the first outspoken opponents of organized religion?

I swear Jesus would have freaked if someone had shown him the churches that would be established in his name.
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13-01-2012, 12:39 PM
RE: William Lane Craig's Q&A Polytheism 2.0
Hitchens vs Craig from 2009

Craig is so full of spin and nonsense that it is truly disgusting.
He is so hard to follow and really makes no sense whatsoever.

Hitch on the other hand is pure brilliance.



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13-01-2012, 01:47 PM (This post was last modified: 13-01-2012 01:56 PM by Starcrash.)
RE: William Lane Craig's Q&A Polytheism 2.0
(13-01-2012 12:39 PM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  Hitchens vs Craig from 2009

Craig is so full of spin and nonsense that it is truly disgusting.
He is so hard to follow and really makes no sense whatsoever.

Hitch on the other hand is pure brilliance.

From an objective viewpoint, this is an extremely humiliating debate for Hitchens. He has had good debates (I'd offer the ones against Tony Blair and Dr. Dembski as examples) but this is not one of them. When WLC offers salvation to Hitchens at the end of the debate, it makes sense in context... the unbiased watching the debate accept that he lost badly. But it may be the fact that you find WLC "hard to follow" that explains why you didn't think he offered good rebuttals.
(12-01-2012 03:55 PM)Denicio Wrote:  I have commented on some, i'll leave the rest for you guys!

I don't think the questions were all that great, to be honest. The answers make sense in the context that "God is separate but not separate"... the answers can be nonsensical because the premise is equally nonsensical. It's simply having your cake and eating it, too - when you need God to be separate beings, He is, and when you need Him to be one being, He is.

I know that it's obvious to us that this is polytheism being excused as monotheism, but the challenge in debating this is that the accepted premise defies logic. You can't draw analogies or compare this idea of 3-in-1 to anything else, because there's nothing else that follows this made-up rule. So I personally try to avoid this line of debate.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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