Winning Pascal's Wager
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15-12-2013, 12:25 PM
RE: Winning Pascal's Wager
This argument with theists is easily defeated. Using Vosur's work I will demonstrate it below:

P1. If The Flying Spaghetti Monster is real, then you either receive infinite pay-off for belief or infinite punishment for disbelief.
a. If you do believe, then you go to The Meatball Factory for eternity.
b. If you do not believe, then you go to Infinite Toilet Bowl for eternity.

P2. If the Flying Spaghetti Monster is not real, then there are no gains or losses either way.
a. If you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and it turns out that he doesn't exist, then you have not lost anything.
b. If you do not believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and it turns out that he doesn't exist, then you have not gained anything.

C1. Therefore, even if there is strong evidence against the Flying Spaghetti Monster, it is still better to believe than to disbelieve.
a. The pay-off for believing if there is a Flying Spaghetti Monster is infinitely better than the benefit of disbelieving if there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster.
b. The punishment for disbelieving if there is a Flying Spaghetti Monster is infinitely worse than the loss caused by wrongly believing that there is a Flying Spaghetti Monster.


So ... anytime a theist tries to use the original Pascal's Wager against you, just show them this one so that they understand how ridiculous it actually is, and then tell them they had better start believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Smartass

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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15-12-2013, 02:37 PM (This post was last modified: 15-12-2013 02:50 PM by Mr Woof.)
RE: Winning Pascal's Wager
(14-12-2013 06:35 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(14-12-2013 06:05 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Why don't you try addressing Elcarch's actual argument instead of attacking a straw man you created?

He didn't claim that Pascal's Wager is an invalid argument; his criticism is directed towards the fact that it's not sound because its premises aren't true.

It is possible that there is a God who rewards people based on their deeds instead of their beliefs and thus the premise that unbelief automatically results in eternal punishment is false.

Its possible God exists and planted fossil evidence to test our faith thus the belief that fossils prove dinosaurs must have actually existed is false. You can discredit anything you want by adding in additional assumptions.

Pascal's default position was his religious belief. The wager was about rejecting his default position.....not an argument to convince others his religion is true or a method of obtaining the truth. The other assumptions you wish to add have nothing to do with the wager Pascal was contemplating.

It seems quite bizarre that God (the good) would need to go to such extraordinary lengths to test our faith.......and for what essentially decent purpose?
As for Pascal's real contemplations; I imagine only Pascal knew that.
Also any presupposition relating to God's universal goodness as it relates to humanity's understanding, presents an unpeneterable gulf. An assumed God's world and requirements would hopefully be far different to ours.When we thoughtlessly speak of God's might we should not also add morality.The two need not co exist.
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15-12-2013, 04:17 PM
RE: Winning Pascal's Wager
I agree its a far safer wager to discount all GODS.
We have already passed the first 2 Commandments:

1> Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2> Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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15-12-2013, 05:02 PM
RE: Winning Pascal's Wager
No no.

I'm sorry but the real way to win Pascal's Wager.....

[Image: tumblr_lydfx4Zqjd1r4bg1q.gif]

[Image: 21omssh.jpg]
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15-12-2013, 10:28 PM (This post was last modified: 15-12-2013 10:39 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Winning Pascal's Wager
Every time Pascal comes up...




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16-12-2013, 04:53 PM
RE: Winning Pascal's Wager
(13-12-2013 05:24 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  I'm going to assume that you're familiar with Pascal's Wager and the fallacies contained therein. I won't repeat them here except to note my own personal amusement at the fact that Blaise Pascal may have died from one of them. I've taken a little time to rewrite the Wager in a logically consistent fashion and hope that the results have Pascal spinning in his grave.

1 Either there is no god
Atheist Win for not wasting time and money worshipping our imaginary friend.

2 Or there is a god and
- 2A This god is rational and sane and doles out rewards/punishments proportional to the achievements/crimes
Atheist Win because most of us thought about our actions rather than doing what somebody else told us. We may be kept waiting outside the gate for a short time for our disbelief but that's nothing compared to what the legions of theists who committed atrocities on the word of some religious demagogue have coming to them.

- 2B Or god is insane (NSFW link), not entirely unlike the biblically literal interpretation, in which case a detailed forensic examination will be needed to distinguish heaven from hell
Atheist Win nominally because we didn't waste time worshipping The Lunatic but really a loss for all sides.

I normally answer it this way.

Pascal's Wager - It is a "safe bet" to believe in God just in case he is real. What's the harm? If you believe and he doesn't exist, you don't lose anything, but if you don't believe and he does exist, you lose big time.

- First, one cannot pretend to believe, one either does or does not. I surmise that a large percentage of "christians" go through the motions under this pretense. If there is a god, I am sure he can see through the pretending..the greatest problem with the wager is its suggestion that a rational person can knowingly will himself to believe a proposition for which he has no evidence. A person can profess any creed he likes, of course, but to really believe something, he must also believe that the belief under consideration is true.
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16-12-2013, 06:25 PM
RE: Winning Pascal's Wager
I am guilty of my own perverted version of Pascal's Wager and I'm not sure I'm happy about that either.Sadcryface

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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