"With or without religion.." Quote. Is Weinberg wrong?
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30-12-2014, 06:58 PM
RE: "With or without religion.." Quote. Is Weinberg wrong?
A million secular people can read the world news and not be guided to break any laws. One of those million may be convinced that the only way to deal with the world is to blow up a building.

And then if we take another million theists who are part of a culture that believes the words of a man whom they see as god's representative on earth, you have the recipe for disaster if that man is convinced that the only way to deal with the world is to blow up some buildings.

Blindly following authority is what our military is somewhat built upon and we do have some checks and balances built into that military system.

In religion, you have people speaking on behalf of a god. "Its not me telling you to do this. This is gods word. It's written right here."

This is why religion can get good people to commit atrocities. It's because those good people are GULLIBLE.

They will believe all kinds of bullshit and not question any of it.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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30-12-2014, 07:01 PM (This post was last modified: 30-12-2014 09:19 PM by Gaest.)
RE: "With or without religion.." Quote. Is Weinberg wrong?
(30-12-2014 04:12 PM)victormarte Wrote:  “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”

Just curious about this. I have had multiple arguments where I use this, although it is argued back that;

"Although not in the name of atheism, secular people can do wrong acts too" and "Good people do evil acts as well, so what's your point?"

What do people think about these counter arguments?

There are too many exceptions for it to be a good stand-alone quote... Any system of practices and beliefs that people may adhere to can make them do things they otherwise wouldn't have done - kinda of obvious really.

And as ClydeLee already pointed to, you would still need to define or at least add to the problematic dualism of good/evil in the quote.

Edit: I kinda answered the thread title more than I answered the question in your actual post.
With regards to the counter arguments you listed, I think they both touches on the problems with the quote, but they don't do it as well as they could have. (written from my phone since my @&%# computer broke)
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31-12-2014, 07:02 AM
RE: "With or without religion.." Quote. Is Weinberg wrong?
(30-12-2014 05:30 PM)Gordon Wrote:  If there is no God, then good and bad don't matter--just the impulse to survive and reproduce.
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the only thing you've said that isn't obviously wrong, the rest of your post is dead wrong regardless
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31-12-2014, 07:18 AM
RE: "With or without religion.." Quote. Is Weinberg wrong?
(30-12-2014 05:36 PM)gofish! Wrote:  Secular people usually need to have a damn good reason to do bad (or a mental condition like schizophrenia or sociopathy).

Religious people don't, they just need the word of god.

Secular people don't need good damn reasons to be good?

Are they just good for goodness sake? But never really bad for badness sake?
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31-12-2014, 07:19 AM
RE: "With or without religion.." Quote. Is Weinberg wrong?
(30-12-2014 04:12 PM)victormarte Wrote:  “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”

Only folks who suffer from cognitive dissonance, and confirmation bias would believe this is true.
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31-12-2014, 07:24 AM
RE: "With or without religion.." Quote. Is Weinberg wrong?
(30-12-2014 06:58 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  In religion, you have people speaking on behalf of a god. "Its not me telling you to do this. This is gods word. It's written right here."

This is why religion can get good people to commit atrocities. It's because those good people are GULLIBLE.

They will believe all kinds of bullshit and not question any of it.

Now assume this is true, religion has this unique ability to get good people to do bad things, would it then also be true that religion has a unique ability to get bad people to do good things?

One thing that's never really noted by atheists who make this argument, is the sort of "unique power" being granted to religion, that if true, we should find some way to harness it and use it for good, and change the whole world over, since all that lacks this "unique power" are too impotent in doing so.
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31-12-2014, 07:41 AM
RE: "With or without religion.." Quote. Is Weinberg wrong?
(30-12-2014 05:36 PM)gofish! Wrote:  Secular people usually need to have a damn good reason to do bad (or a mental condition like schizophrenia or sociopathy).

Religious people don't, they just need the word of god.

Wow.

That is a HUGE, massively super-hyped, propaganda-ish, over generalization.

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31-12-2014, 08:06 AM
RE: "With or without religion.." Quote. Is Weinberg wrong?
(31-12-2014 07:41 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(30-12-2014 05:36 PM)gofish! Wrote:  Secular people usually need to have a damn good reason to do bad (or a mental condition like schizophrenia or sociopathy).

Religious people don't, they just need the word of god.

Wow.

That is a HUGE, massively super-hyped, propaganda-ish, over generalization.

Why? There is no generalisation here. It's not like I'm saying all religious people are evil.
 
If a religious person wants to do something evil, or give into an negative urge, be intolerant of people, or fight a holy war, there is always the "word of god" to fall back on.
 
And I don't need to go too far to find evidence (we'll start with ISIS...)
 
That many religious people choose not to is a different issue. But their relatively benign practice still creates the safe harbour for the nutters...

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N.B: I routinely make edits to posts to correct grammar or spelling, or to restate a point more clearly. I only notify edits if they materially change meaning.
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31-12-2014, 08:46 AM
RE: "With or without religion.." Quote. Is Weinberg wrong?
(31-12-2014 07:24 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(30-12-2014 06:58 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  In religion, you have people speaking on behalf of a god. "Its not me telling you to do this. This is gods word. It's written right here."

This is why religion can get good people to commit atrocities. It's because those good people are GULLIBLE.

They will believe all kinds of bullshit and not question any of it.

Now assume this is true, religion has this unique ability to get good people to do bad things, would it then also be true that religion has a unique ability to get bad people to do good things?

One thing that's never really noted by atheists who make this argument, is the sort of "unique power" being granted to religion, that if true, we should find some way to harness it and use it for good, and change the whole world over, since all that lacks this "unique power" are too impotent in doing so.

Manipulating gullible people is not a unique power.
Those doing the manipulating are often ruled by greed and power. It's unlikely that these manipulators will also be altruistic .

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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31-12-2014, 08:52 AM (This post was last modified: 31-12-2014 08:57 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: "With or without religion.." Quote. Is Weinberg wrong?
(31-12-2014 08:46 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Manipulating gullible people is not a unique power.
Those doing the manipulating are often ruled by greed and power. It's unlikely that these manipulators will also be altruistic .

So people only manipulate in such a way for greed and power, but never for altruistic reasons you're saying?

And in your view manipulation doesn't require the agent to pass off something they know is false, but applies to those passing on something to others which they hold as true, but is false nonetheless?
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