"Without God... "
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24-08-2011, 12:59 PM
RE: "Without God... "
So, what you're saying, Theophillius, is that you worship an absolute monster who has zero empathy (despite being all-knowing) and doesn't care for human suffering, because we are property?

Do you endorse slavery?

Are you okay with parents raping their children because they created their children and thus are their property?

If you could create a thinking computer, with free will and the ability to feel, it would be perfectly okay to torture it, 24/7 just for your own amusement?

You worship a monster, and you are so deluded that you can't see it. No one has the right to own another person, no matter how powerful or weak one or the other is. Period. End of story. I know now that I can safely ignore anything else you say, because your mind is broken, and I am more likely to get serious wisdom for life by watching childrens films. When you apologize for what you have said, then maybe we can talk.
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24-08-2011, 01:39 PM
 
RE: "Without God... "
(24-08-2011 10:56 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I have tried throwing my opinion in on these debates from an evolutionary perspective and I either get ignored or I get responses that imply that humans are above the examples of other organisms I use. We can evaluate certain basic moral principles in the natural world in an attempt to understand why they exist. Murder? Murder is defined as killing another human, but if we broaden this definition to be that murder is one organism taking the life of another organism of the same species then we can see that other animals also avoid murder. Why? IT IS BAD FOR THE SPECIES!!!!!

Of course there are a lot of theists who also fall under the classification of creationist/intelligent designer and feel the need to place humans outside of the realm of nature. We are animals. We are highly intelligent, socially advanced animals but they refuse to see it that way.

I feel this is one of the first obstacles to try and overcome in the morality argument. It is necessary to show them that humans are not the only organisms that follow a "code" that is in place to protect the species.

The evolution of morals is an interesting topic, and as you said one that theists ignore a lot. They tend to make an argument from incredulity and ignorance of what science has to say on the topic. When it comes to that, I don't think you can make any progress before explaining why their position is fallacious. While I agree that educating them in this is a good start, I think there are a lot of pitfalls that must be found and dealt with before one gets too far into the conversation.

There are many approaches that can be taken to the morality issue. I just personally prefer looking at theist arguments that tend to be a last resort, the ones they fall back to and have the most confidence in. If you look up Cliffe Knechtle, you can see him make the argument I'm trying to deal with all the time.

(24-08-2011 11:17 AM)theophilus Wrote:  God's morality is the same as ours. Part of that morality is that the owner can do what he likes with his property and we are all God's property.

You've yet to establish that, Theophilus. Convince me that the kind of ownership you describe leads to the ability to dictate morals to that which is "owned". And how creating a sentient being confers ownership. Before you answer, please look up "special pleading" and try to avoid it, okay?

While you're at it, you can also tell me whether you think it would be right for God to send you to hell and give Adolf Hitler your place in Heaven because he enjoys a bit of dramatic irony.
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24-08-2011, 02:20 PM
RE: "Without God... "
IYamWhatIAm and yous are god-food.
Godda problem with dat? Talk to the hand-puppets.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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24-08-2011, 03:14 PM
RE: "Without God... "
(24-08-2011 10:53 AM)theophilus Wrote:  God created us and has an absolute right to do whatever he wants with us, including killing us, so if he kills someone it isn't murder but simply an exercise of his right of ownership. He can also choose any method, including commanding someone else to do the killing. Killing someone at God's command is obedience, not murder.

Good grief, where to start?

First of all, I hardly need to point out that exactly this kind of religious mania led to the terrorist attacks on 11 Sept. 2001 and a million other atrocities throughout the ages. "God told us to do it."

Second, it's always struck me as odd that a Supreme Being with the attribute of omnipotence needs human beings to carry out his will. If he wants to kill someone, why doesn't he just go ahead and off the guy himself? Why does he need us to do his dirty work for him?

Third, suppose you heard your Sky Buddy whispering in your ear that you should kill your grandmother, or your teacher, or your boss, or your son (not that he would EVER tell someone to kill their son for no reason . . . Gen. 22). You've said that carrying out such a command would be obedience, not murder, and so not only justifiable but altogether commendable. But how could you be sure it was God who was speaking to you? As a Bible-believing Xian, you believe in a literal devil, and he has a million tricks up his sleeve. How would you know it wasn't actually Satan speaking to you, impersonating God?

Finally, I've gotta tell you: Although I disagree with virtually everything you say, I was ready to give you points for exhibiting poise and grace in a hostile environment. But the above quote gives me chills. You're a scary dude.

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
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24-08-2011, 04:01 PM
RE: "Without God... "
From the things he is saying here about justifying killing and atrocities if god wills it, I'm wondering if Theo is serious or trolling. I don't see how anyone could seriously think that way and be sane.

“There is no sin except stupidity.” Oscar Wilde
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24-08-2011, 04:37 PM
RE: "Without God... "
(24-08-2011 11:05 AM)nontheocrat Wrote:  Simple fact, if morality came from a god then you would have no way of identifying whether said god was good or not. Most religious people will say that god has the right to decide right and wrong because he is all powerful. The believer who posits this is saying in essence that "might makes right" making morality nonexistent because it is simply whatever the biggest bully decides it is.

Yes ,I agree. God in his cosmic netherworld, his bona fides unknown to mere mortals, other than the disturbed ,could only operate in the Judaeo/ Christian sense, by coercion.No matter how impressive long and fatuous arguments may seem to some believers, the god of the universe would, one would like to think, be far, far, beyond our comprehension.We might also question the morality of any "superbeing" creating all manner of sentient beings, many to suffer needlessly, while offering others ultra dubious pie in the sky.
The POWER/RiGHTS, arguments been well worn into non existence.Angry
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24-08-2011, 05:01 PM
RE: "Without God... "
(24-08-2011 10:53 AM)theophilus Wrote:  God created us and has an absolute right to do whatever he wants with us, including killing us, so if he kills someone it isn't murder but simply an exercise of his right of ownership. He can also choose any method, including commanding someone else to do the killing. Killing someone at God's command is obedience, not murder.

That was one of the most disturbing things I have ever read on this forum.
So basically we are the slaves of a genocidal monster?.
The same god that is supposedly loving and forgiving will happily kill us at will for whatever reason it's twisted mind can come up with. Or use my fellow humans as pawns to do it for it. It's almost like it is playing games with our lifes causing suffering for it's own enjoyment. And this is the being worshiped as the ultimate good in the universe there's nothing good about it.

Killing someone under gods command IS murder and can't be justified in anyway.
Thinking it's ok because "god said so" to justify a horrific act is disgusting no wonder there's a problem with religious extremists with that kind of thinking.
Christians say atheists have no morals then try to justify immoral acts as gods will. Talk about hypocrisy.
We are property. Our reason for our existence is to obey yet we have free will. Think for yourself untill I tell u otherwise.
Bit of a contradiction don't you think? For an all knowing being god doesn't seem to know what it wants.

Behold the power of the force!
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24-08-2011, 05:56 PM
RE: "Without God... "
My favorite response is Plato's trick question:
Does God only do good, or is it good because God does it? Whatever they answer, they are screwed. Either their god is not omnipotent, (if god only does good, then he CAN'T do some things) or we need only point out all the atrocities God commits and ask the Christian if racism, sexism, genocide and slavery are good.

Archibald MacLeish said it most elegantly in J.B.:

If God is God he is not good,
If God is good, he is not God.
Take the even, take the odd,
I would not stay here if I could
Except for the little green leaves on the trees
And the wind on the water.
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24-08-2011, 06:14 PM
RE: "Without God... "
(24-08-2011 05:56 PM)BadKnees Wrote:  My favorite response is Plato's trick question:
Does God only do good, or is it good because God does it? Whatever they answer, they are screwed. Either their god is not omnipotent, (if god only does good, then he CAN'T do some things) or we need only point out all the atrocities God commits and ask the Christian if racism, sexism, genocide and slavery are good.

Archibald MacLeish said it most elegantly in J.B.:

If God is God he is not good,
If God is good, he is not God.
Take the even, take the odd,
I would not stay here if I could
Except for the little green leaves on the trees
And the wind on the water.

Thanks for that beautiful MacLeish quote from J.B.

A couple of years ago I sat in on a course on the Book of Job--just this old atheist along with 8 young Reform rabbinical students. (It was largely non-theological and quite enlightening.) The instructor was a dynamic young woman who had recently earned a Ph.D. in Jewish hermeneutics. The syllabus she put together included outside readings inspired by Job, one of which was J.B. I remember that during the discussion of the play she broke down, as did several members of the class. It really is that moving.

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
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24-08-2011, 06:21 PM
RE: "Without God... "
(24-08-2011 06:14 PM)cufflink Wrote:  Thanks for that beautiful MacLeish quote from J.B.

A couple of years ago I sat in on a course on the Book of Job--just this old atheist along with 8 young Reform rabbinical students. (It was largely non-theological and quite enlightening.) The instructor was a dynamic young woman who had recently earned a Ph.D. in Jewish hermeneutics. The syllabus she put together included outside readings inspired by Job, one of which was J.B. I remember that during the discussion of the play she broke down, as did several members of the class. It really is that moving.

It truly is a great play. As a working theatre designer for the past 2 decades, I have had the privilege of working on that show a couple times. It remains one of my all-time favorites.
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