Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
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03-04-2016, 10:27 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 10:23 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 10:19 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  So your answer is "no" a woman is not able or capable of making an abortion decision by herself and she needs you and/or others to make that decision for her.

Once again, no. We're still stuck on could/should it seems.

Well that is a direct result of your stance here, either you trust women to make medical decisions on their own or you and the government need to make them for her.

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03-04-2016, 10:29 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 10:23 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 10:19 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  So your answer is "no" a woman is not able or capable of making an abortion decision by herself and she needs you and/or others to make that decision for her.

Once again, no. We're still stuck on could/should it seems.

Then answer the question that is asked.

Are women (as a whole and individually but not counting the mentally disabled) able/capable of making their own decision on abortion without you or anyone else making the decision for them? That is the question no matter how many times you try to evade it.

Yes or no.

If "no", why not?

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03-04-2016, 10:29 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
@Dark Light

Apparently, the finer point of reading comprehension still eludes you. I mostly meant that because, your point are either irrelevant to the question and/or relying on a false equivocation of the term independent and a huge misconception on what a third semester abortion is, not to mention a false assumption on my personal belief on abortion. But, I was rude because I am butt hurt. I apologies for the unnecessary jab. Here is some clarification on my point and beliefs about abortion.

Let’s start with the concept of infants as independent living being vs a fetus. A fetus isn't independent. If the mother dies of a heart attack for example, the fetus will die in the following minutes due to lack of oxygen. The fetus is completely dependant on the mother for air and nutrition. A baby, can breathe on its own. It isn't completely dependant on his mother to feed either. It cannot feed or catch a meal on its own, but any person can feed a baby, not a fetus. It is thus independent biologically speaking, he doesn't require help to maintain basic biological function like breathing or digesting. It doesn't «parasite» another being for nutrition or air, but it is socially dependant (AKA it require cares from other human to survive). It's also good to note that anybody can have interactions with a baby (and vice-versa), they are part of society; you cannot have direct interactions with a fetus neither can a fetus have interactions with you. This is a fundamental and major difference in my opinion between a baby and a fetus.

All human are socially dependant to various degree depending on their skills, health, fitness and age. The younger a human is, the less skilled he tends to be and the more dependant he is from other member of his society. The situation reverse itself when he reaches old age, at which points his dependency increase as is health and fitness decrease. In resume, what set apart a baby from a fetus is the fact that one is biologically independent while the other isn't (yet) and one is part of society, while the other isn’t. In the same fashion, what set apart children from teenagers and teenagers from adults is their level of social independence. The more they have, the more rights, privileges and responsibilities they have.

To clarify the mysterious concept that people don't have the same rights depending on their age, fetus have no rights because they have no independence. Infants have very few rights, because beside their biological independence, they have pretty much nothing. Children have less rights than teenagers, but more than infants because they are more independent. Same thing for teenagers and adults. I didn't correct myself since it would imply a contradiction, I detailed a concept, that of level of independence and social connectivity.

Now on the subject of third semester abortion. In my country (and province), a women can have an abortion 15 minutes before she enters labor, free of charge in any hospital or abortion center with the equipment necessary for the procedure. If you look at the statistics thought, you will notice that this never happens. There is absolutely no abortion done after the 25 week mark (90% are 16 weeks or prior). This is because a fetus can survive outside a women womb at that point. Thus, if she wants an abortion. We simply provoke the birth or make a C-section surgery and fill the paperwork for adoption or chid abandon. There is a market for adoption. Many people who wants babies will be happy to take care of the one another person didn’t wanted (or couldn’t take care of). Why kill a baby that someone might want? It seems pointless to me. But, for the sake of a rhetorical question in the land of make believe. I have no objection to killing a 25+ week old fetus that is unwanted. I do have a problem with a baby though, because a baby is more independent and part of society, not a fetus. Before you ask, no I don’t have any problem with assisted suicide or euthanasia of a person who’s basically in the same situation than a fetus with no chance of recovery.

You might want to know that during a late abortion, the fetus is killed by braking its neck, which sever the spinal cord. Thus, your example is ironically not far from the truth. The only reason I am not opposed to such a procedure is because there is an obvious better solution that is just as easy and much less wasteful. But, no the concept of it doesn't shock me and should the obvious best solution, extract the baby and put it to adoption, be impossible for some reason, I would not mind killing the fetus should this be the wish of the mother.

On a last note, I would like to mention the fact that the citizen status of a human has no impact on his right to live since this is a universal right (it's illegal to kill another person in most circumstances no matter its nationality). Thus, I would like you to explain how you thought it was pertinent. Fetus have no citizenship because they aren't part of any society yet. Not to mention that most rules surrounding citizenship is linked to place of birth, not place of conception. Bureaucracy are like that, stringent on rules.

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03-04-2016, 10:30 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 09:43 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  I believe a viable fetus should benefit from the same protection as it were after it was born because there is little to no difference between a child shortly before it is born , and shortly after it is born.

You mean like food stamps, medicare, and welfare for a child born to a poor, jobless single mother? Wait. Those ain't rights in many States.




There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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03-04-2016, 10:43 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 10:30 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 09:43 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  I believe a viable fetus should benefit from the same protection as it were after it was born because there is little to no difference between a child shortly before it is born , and shortly after it is born.

You mean like food stamps, medicare, and welfare for a child born to a poor, jobless single mother? Wait. Those ain't rights in many States.





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03-04-2016, 11:02 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 10:27 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 10:23 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Once again, no. We're still stuck on could/should it seems.

Well that is a direct result of your stance here, either you trust women to make medical decisions on their own or you and the government need to make them for her.

Or I could rephrase it as

Either I trust women to commit murder at their own discretion, or I believe we should have laws enacted as a result of a justice system implemented by representatives which we elect as a society.

Now, normally I would not phrase it that way because I am well aware of the nuances and grey areas of this topic and don't want to be an antagonistic asshole who is only capable of viewing things from one perspective, but am doing so to illustrate the absurdity of pretending this is an issue which is all about sexism, which is what you are implying.

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03-04-2016, 11:04 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 10:27 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Well that is a direct result of your stance here, either you trust women to make medical decisions on their own or you and the government need to make them for her.
No, Dark Light is simply pointing out the fact that there's a legitimate discussion to be had about the point at which the law should protect a life from being aborted. Unless you're arguing that a woman should be able to abort her child shortly before or even after delivery, then you too agree that the government should interfere in a woman's choice to have an abortion at some point. The discussion isn't about whether or not to have government interference at all, it's about "at what point of the pregnancy".

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03-04-2016, 11:06 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 10:29 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 10:23 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Once again, no. We're still stuck on could/should it seems.

Then answer the question that is asked.

Are women (as a whole and individually but not counting the mentally disabled) able/capable of making their own decision on abortion without you or anyone else making the decision for them? That is the question no matter how many times you try to evade it.

Yes or no.

If "no", why not?

Yes, they are capable. Is that plain enough English you? I am also capable of deciding to kill because I didn't see the life in question as valuable. Doesn't mean it should be permitted. I don't know how else to spell if out.

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03-04-2016, 11:10 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 11:02 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Either I trust women to commit murder at their own discretion, or I believe we should have laws enacted as a result of a justice system implemented by representatives which we elect as a society.

We already have that.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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03-04-2016, 11:11 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 11:10 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 11:02 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Either I trust women to commit murder at their own discretion, or I believe we should have laws enacted as a result of a justice system implemented by representatives which we elect as a society.

We already have that.

Yes. Yes, we do. I'm not arguing that we don't.

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