Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
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03-04-2016, 11:16 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 11:04 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 10:27 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Well that is a direct result of your stance here, either you trust women to make medical decisions on their own or you and the government need to make them for her.
No, Dark Light is simply pointing out the fact that there's a legitimate discussion to be had about the point at which the law should protect a life from being aborted. Unless you're arguing that a woman should be able to abort her child shortly before or even after delivery, then you too agree that the government should interfere in a woman's choice to have an abortion at some point. The discussion isn't about whether or not to have government interference at all, it's about "at what point of the pregnancy".

You are aware that this is a false dilemma. Even when it's legal to abort a fetus minutes before a women go into labor, this never happens, because there is an obvious third solution that can satisfy both party. The fetus doesn't die and the mother doesn't have to pursue her pregnancy or take care of the baby. If the baby is born, it isn't an abortion under a strict definition of the term either. The choice of a women who abort isn't to «kill the baby». It's to not pursue her pregnancy and take care of the child. In many cases, it implies «a death», but it's not a necessity. Kipling the opposite is dishonnest.

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03-04-2016, 11:32 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 11:06 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 10:29 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  Then answer the question that is asked.

Are women (as a whole and individually but not counting the mentally disabled) able/capable of making their own decision on abortion without you or anyone else making the decision for them? That is the question no matter how many times you try to evade it.

Yes or no.

If "no", why not?

Yes, they are capable. Is that plain enough English you? I am also capable of deciding to kill because I didn't see the life in question as valuable. Doesn't mean it should be permitted. I don't know how else to spell if out.

So women are capable of making their own abortion decisions.

Now why don't you let them make that decision?

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03-04-2016, 11:40 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 11:02 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 10:27 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Well that is a direct result of your stance here, either you trust women to make medical decisions on their own or you and the government need to make them for her.

Or I could rephrase it as

Either I trust women to commit murder at their own discretion, or I believe we should have laws enacted as a result of a justice system implemented by representatives which we elect as a society.

Now, normally I would not phrase it that way because I am well aware of the nuances and grey areas of this topic and don't want to be an antagonistic asshole who is only capable of viewing things from one perspective, but am doing so to illustrate the absurdity of pretending this is an issue which is all about sexism, which is what you are implying.

Except abortion is not murder. Murder is the illegal taking of a life of a person. A fetus is neither a person nor is it illegal to take its life. Please stick to the real terms of words and not what you want them to mean in order to denigrate women.

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03-04-2016, 11:46 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 11:32 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 11:06 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Yes, they are capable. Is that plain enough English you? I am also capable of deciding to kill because I didn't see the life in question as valuable. Doesn't mean it should be permitted. I don't know how else to spell if out.

So women are capable of making their own abortion decisions.

Now why don't you let them make that decision?

If you cannot understand those reasons after I have explicitly explained it multiple times I have no reason to believe that you will understand it if I explained it a 4th time, or whatever number we are up to. Vosur has also explained it.

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03-04-2016, 11:47 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 11:04 AM)Vosur Wrote:  ...
The discussion isn't about whether or not to have government interference at all, it's about "at what point of the pregnancy".

What's all the fuss about? This is really simple.

There is a point in development before which the collection of cells is incapable of surviving on its own, without the support from its mother.

This is around 18 years old.

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03-04-2016, 11:51 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 11:16 AM)epronovost Wrote:  Kipling the opposite is dishonnest.

Rudyard Kipling? Kippering?

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03-04-2016, 11:53 AM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2016 12:01 PM by Heatheness.)
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 11:46 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 11:32 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  So women are capable of making their own abortion decisions.

Now why don't you let them make that decision?

If you cannot understand those reasons after I have explicitly explained it multiple times I have no reason to believe that you will understand it if I explained it a 4th time, or whatever number we are up to. Vosur has also explained it.

So, if you think they are capable of making that decision and yet you are still against them making that decision, the only thing left is sexism.

Edit: And based on this quote of yours...
Quote:Either I trust women to commit murder at their own discretion, or I believe we should have laws enacted as a result of a justice system implemented by representatives which we elect as a society.
... I would suspect misogyny as well. I could be wrong...

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03-04-2016, 11:56 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 11:16 AM)epronovost Wrote:  You are aware that this is a false dilemma. Even when it's legal to abort a fetus minutes before a women go into labor, this never happens, because there is an obvious third solution that can satisfy both party. The fetus doesn't die and the mother doesn't have to pursue her pregnancy or take care of the baby. If the baby is born, it isn't an abortion under a strict definition of the term either. The choice of a women who abort isn't to «kill the baby». It's to not pursue her pregnancy and take care of the child. In many cases, it implies «a death», but it's not a necessity. Kipling the opposite is dishonnest.
How do you know that it never happens? The statistics more often than not stop counting at a certain point that is well before actual delivery. Canada, for instance, doesn't have a legal time limit on abortions and their official statistics don't differentiate between abortions performed after 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29 or 30 weeks. They're all simply grouped together as "21+ weeks". Nobody actually knows how many abortions are performed that late because the statistics don't keep track of them.

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03-04-2016, 12:02 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 11:56 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 11:16 AM)epronovost Wrote:  You are aware that this is a false dilemma. Even when it's legal to abort a fetus minutes before a women go into labor, this never happens, because there is an obvious third solution that can satisfy both party. The fetus doesn't die and the mother doesn't have to pursue her pregnancy or take care of the baby. If the baby is born, it isn't an abortion under a strict definition of the term either. The choice of a women who abort isn't to «kill the baby». It's to not pursue her pregnancy and take care of the child. In many cases, it implies «a death», but it's not a necessity. Kipling the opposite is dishonnest.
How do you know that it never happens? The statistics more often than not stop counting at a certain point that is well before actual delivery. Canada, for instance, doesn't have a legal time limit on abortions and their official statistics don't differentiate between abortions performed after 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29 or 30 weeks. They're all simply grouped together as "21+ weeks". Nobody actually knows how many abortions are performed that late because the statistics don't keep track of them.

Good for Canada. Guess they understand it's no ones business but the woman's.

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03-04-2016, 12:08 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 11:04 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 10:27 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Well that is a direct result of your stance here, either you trust women to make medical decisions on their own or you and the government need to make them for her.
No, Dark Light is simply pointing out the fact that there's a legitimate discussion to be had about the point at which the law should protect a life from being aborted. Unless you're arguing that a woman should be able to abort her child shortly before or even after delivery, then you too agree that the government should interfere in a woman's choice to have an abortion at some point. The discussion isn't about whether or not to have government interference at all, it's about "at what point of the pregnancy".

One aborts fetuses, babies don't need to be aborted, they are already born.

The government should never interfere, not in abortions, not in death with dignity. Persons should be able to practice self determination, the most basic of all freedoms.

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