Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
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03-04-2016, 12:09 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 11:53 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 11:46 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  If you cannot understand those reasons after I have explicitly explained it multiple times I have no reason to believe that you will understand it if I explained it a 4th time, or whatever number we are up to. Vosur has also explained it.

So, if you think they are capable of making that decision and yet you are still against them making that decision, the only thing left is sexism.

Edit: And based on this quote of yours...
Quote:Either I trust women to commit murder at their own discretion, or I believe we should have laws enacted as a result of a justice system implemented by representatives which we elect as a society.
... I would suspect misogyny as well. I could be wrong...

You deliberately removed the context of that quote for the purpose of perpetuating misinformation. I suspect misandry. Drinking Beverage

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03-04-2016, 12:15 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 11:56 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 11:16 AM)epronovost Wrote:  You are aware that this is a false dilemma. Even when it's legal to abort a fetus minutes before a women go into labor, this never happens, because there is an obvious third solution that can satisfy both party. The fetus doesn't die and the mother doesn't have to pursue her pregnancy or take care of the baby. If the baby is born, it isn't an abortion under a strict definition of the term either. The choice of a women who abort isn't to «kill the baby». It's to not pursue her pregnancy and take care of the child. In many cases, it implies «a death», but it's not a necessity. Kipling the opposite is dishonnest.
How do you know that it never happens? The statistics more often than not stop counting at a certain point that is well before actual delivery. Canada, for instance, doesn't have a legal time limit on abortions and their official statistics don't differentiate between abortions performed after 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29 or 30 weeks. They're all simply grouped together as "21+ weeks". Nobody actually knows how many abortions are performed that late because the statistics don't keep track of them.

It's because the fetus is viable outside of a women's womb at 24 week (about 50% chances of survival). Thus, we stop performing abortion at that point and simply force labor or perform a C-section because its believed that the risk is worth the reward. Note that there is also less than 1% abortion at 21+ week and that they can only be done in an operating room of an hospital, not in a abortion clinic due to the material required for the procedure. In resume, there is about 0.80% of abortion performed between 21 to 24 weeks, after that the fetus has good chances to be viable and we use another proceedure. Debates on abortion after the 24th week are tackling an incredibly small percentage that has an easy solution that satisfy both party involved, those who would like a women to stop a pregnancy when she wants and those who would like a child to be born. In my opinion, argumenting about abortion after the 24th week is the very definition of a false dilemma because of this. We already have the solution and we can implement it rather easily. You simply need to put money in your maternity wards. Considering the small number they represent, this is a drop in a ocean of newborn babies.

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03-04-2016, 12:17 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 12:09 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 11:53 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  So, if you think they are capable of making that decision and yet you are still against them making that decision, the only thing left is sexism.

Edit: And based on this quote of yours... ... I would suspect misogyny as well. I could be wrong...

You deliberately removed the context of that quote for the purpose of perpetuating misinformation. I suspect misandry. Drinking Beverage


Oh, I don't mind putting it in, in it's entirety, the context is the same. Sexism is still sexism no matter how verbose. I just chose brevity to be concise but here, allow me.

Quote:Or I could rephrase it as

Either I trust women to commit murder at their own discretion, or I believe we should have laws enacted as a result of a justice system implemented by representatives which we elect as a society.

Now, normally I would not phrase it that way because I am well aware of the nuances and grey areas of this topic and don't want to be an antagonistic asshole who is only capable of viewing things from one perspective, but am doing so to illustrate the absurdity of pretending this is an issue which is all about sexism, which is what you are implying.

And based on this quote of yours... ... I would suspect misogyny as well. I could be wrong but I'm not.

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03-04-2016, 12:23 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 11:02 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 10:27 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Well that is a direct result of your stance here, either you trust women to make medical decisions on their own or you and the government need to make them for her.

Or I could rephrase it as

Either I trust women to commit murder at their own discretion, or I believe we should have laws enacted as a result of a justice system implemented by representatives which we elect as a society.

Now, normally I would not phrase it that way because I am well aware of the nuances and grey areas of this topic and don't want to be an antagonistic asshole who is only capable of viewing things from one perspective, but am doing so to illustrate the absurdity of pretending this is an issue which is all about sexism, which is what you are implying.

No, it is not "all about sexism," but there's a bunch of sexism in the TRAP abortion laws. These laws have typically treated women seeking abortion as lesser and incapable, so much that they have to be "educated" on what they are doing, so much that they have to undergo a mandatory waiting period/multiple consultations to reevaluate their decision, etc.

Women should be able to choose whether to undergo the health complications and risk of a term pregnancy. Females bear the physical risk of reproduction, and I think the laws need to be written favoring female decisions even in the gray areas. Certainly I hope that medical technology eventually comes up with an alternative, like a mechanical incubator that could nurture a fetus outside a woman's body--I think a lot of women might go for that option.

The evidence from countries with less restrictive abortion laws does not seem to support that there are very many women who have gone to 7-8 months of pregnancy and are still eager to abort, outside of these circumstances: 1) they are children themselves and it's a domestic abuse type of situation; 2) the fetus has a known condition that will make its life as a baby short and miserable; 3) they have been trying to get an abortion since they have known they were pregnant, but have not been able to do so previously.

Until there is an external option for bringing fetuses to term, I think you do, actually, have to trust women to terminate pregnancies at their own discretion.
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03-04-2016, 12:32 PM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2016 01:17 PM by Matt Finney.)
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
One day, when earth is way overpopulated with humanoids, we'll look back at this topic and laugh, because the debate will be about whether or not we should make abortion mandatory, not whether it should be allowed.

My only real grip is when prolifers are called sexist. Sure, there may be some sexist prolifers, but there may also be some sexist prochoicers. I think most prolifers are against abortion for the exact same reason prochoicers (and prolifers) are against infanticide. They see it as killing a human.

Flame on.....
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03-04-2016, 12:46 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 06:57 AM)Dom Wrote:  It's never my business. It's society's business once woman and baby are separate entities. Then it would be murder. Up until that point, it's the woman's business.

I was only stating the way I would feel about it. I am female, in case you don't know. Personally, I would see it as a non issue until the fetus can feel pain. After that, a decision to abort would be a huge and horrific decision.
In my personal opinion, it is irrelevant whether the unborn feels pain or not.
However, I see the growing entity as unique and special. This combination of DNA will never be represented ever again. I don't see it as any less important than a born person.

But in saying this, it isn't my place to stop others from having abortions.

Would I consider supporting my wife in having an abortion? Sure I would and in some situations I would encourage it. The ramification from a parent's perspective is different from that of the perceived unborn's perspective. Do I want to have a kid in my teenage years? No, do I want to have a baby with some known issues, (depends on the issues). I can always make another (albeit a different 'nother).

But it's our choice, not governments. Society does not become dangerous and unstable when mothers have abortions.
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03-04-2016, 12:53 PM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2016 01:08 PM by Vosur.)
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 12:15 PM)epronovost Wrote:  It's because the fetus is viable outside of a women's womb at 24 week (about 50% chances of survival). Thus, we stop performing abortion at that point and simply force labor or perform a C-section because its believed that the risk is worth the reward. Note that there is also less than 1% abortion at 21+ week and that they can only be done in an operating room of an hospital, not in a abortion clinic due to the material required for the procedure. In resume, there is about 0.80% of abortion performed between 21 to 24 weeks, after that the fetus has good chances to be viable and we use another proceedure.
What is your source for the implicit claim that no abortions are performed after the 24th week? The official statistics list thousands of abortions that were performed at an "Unknown" stage of the pregnancy and say nothing about whether the "21+ weeks" category includes any 25+ weeks abortions. In 2014, the "Unknown" category accounted for a whopping 19% of all abortions*.

(03-04-2016 12:15 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Debates on abortion after the 24th week are tackling an incredibly small percentage that has an easy solution that satisfy both party involved, those who would like a women to stop a pregnancy when she wants and those who would like a child to be born. In my opinion, argumenting about abortion after the 24th week is the very definition of a false dilemma because of this. We already have the solution and we can implement it rather easily. You simply need to put money in your maternity wards. Considering the small number they represent, this is a drop in a ocean of newborn babies.
The issue in question is this: If a woman who is pregnant in the 25th+ week decides that she wants to abort her child, should she legally be allowed to do so? It's great that you think there is a better alternative, but it doesn't automatically eliminate the other option for the women who would rather have an abortion than suffer through childbirth.

Edit: *As far as the statistics allow one to determine that anyway. They only list the time of the abortion for 24,739 out of 81,897 abortions. No data is available for all of the others.

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03-04-2016, 12:55 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 12:32 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  One day, when earth is way overpopulated with humanoids, we'll look back at this topic and laugh, because the debate will be about whether or not we should make abortion mandatory, not whether it should be allowed.

My only real grip is when prolifers are called sexist. Sure, there my be some sexist prolifers, but there may also be some sexist prochoicers. I think most prolifers are against abortion for the exact same reason prochoicers (and prolifers) are against infanticide. They see it as killing a human.

Flame on.....

Or maybe when genetically engineered diseases spread and fertilization of eggs becomes almost impossible, it will become the opposite end. Where the debate will then be if it is not reasonable for all women to let their eggs be extracted and tested for potential breeding.

I've never had much respect in understanding the speciality or complexe uniqueness of that fertilized egg vs the exact same mentality given to the unfertilized egg which is equally unique or those millions of sperm. The distinction lines in arguments here seem far to arbitrary other than based on anything concluded as a reason to be a limit, then argued for.

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03-04-2016, 12:57 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 12:53 PM)Vosur Wrote:  The official statistics list thousands of abortions that were performed at an "Unknown" stage of the pregnancy. In 2014, those accounted for a whopping 19% of all abortions.

Are you talking US? Or are you still talking Canada?

(03-04-2016 12:53 PM)Vosur Wrote:  The official statistics list The issue in question is this: If a woman who is pregnant in the 25th+ week decides that she wants to abort her child, should she legally be allowed to do so?

In Maryland if the woman was going batshit bonkers from the crazy ass pregnant hormones, she could get one legally.

#sigh
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03-04-2016, 12:58 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 12:32 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  One day, when earth is way overpopulated with humanoids, we'll look back at this topic and laugh, because the debate will be about whether or not we should make abortion mandatory, not whether it should be allowed.

China already tried this.

#sigh
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