Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
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03-04-2016, 12:59 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 12:57 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Are you talking US? Or are you still talking Canada?
I'm still talking about Canada.

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03-04-2016, 01:24 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 11:02 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Or I could rephrase it as

Either I trust women to commit murder at their own discretion, or I believe we should have laws enacted as a result of a justice system implemented by representatives which we elect as a society.

Now, normally I would not phrase it that way because I am well aware of the nuances and grey areas of this topic and don't want to be an antagonistic asshole who is only capable of viewing things from one perspective, but am doing so to illustrate the absurdity of pretending this is an issue which is all about sexism, which is what you are implying.
I think you are unnecessarily getting a hard time here. Your stance is quite normal. I disagree with it, but my stance is the "not so normal one".

It comes down to this "murder" term. Obviously you have taken liberties with the word because "murder" is a legal term. It is only murder if the law says it is. If the law makes late term abortion legal then it isn't murder.

But I recognise the message you are conveying, that you consider the third trimester unborn to be a "person" and you consider that "persons" ought to be protected under law. (sorry if I have your position incorrect here)

"person" is also a legal term, mind you. So appealing to "personhood" would be circular reasoning.

Pro-lifers also consider third term abortion to be "murder" regardless of what the law states. Unlike you they consider first term abortion to be "murder". They deem personhood to be at conception. Dom has stated (in a way) that she deems personhood to be at the point that that the fetus develops a nervous system and can feel pain. I have claimed (in a way) that personhood begins at conception but that personhood isn't a reason for me (or my government) to interfere.

Abortion is often a hot topic for debate, there is no definitive answer and many people are passionate about this topic. Obviously many pro-choicers recognise the benefits of abortion, the ability to get rid of an unwanted pregnancy or a defective pregnancy, abortion can be life saving, it can make life easier by allowing a teenage girl to continue with her education, it can allow a poor family to make ends meet. Pro-lifers consider all this to be "murder" by convenience. They see it as an ultimate crime by a selfish act.
You recognise that there is a "slippery slope" regarding allowing people to kill people and that at some point a law is necessary to protect people from people.

In my personal opinion, it is all about defining the purpose of law and trying to define that purpose in a way which is demonstrably objective. In my opinion claiming a certain developmental point to delineate the non person/person point is arbitrary, just a matter of personal opinion. I understand that you consider the point of birth to fit into this "arbitrary" mold.

So I think the only way to move forward on a discussion about abortion is to first define a purpose for government and law. Because it is the law that determines whether society (the police) will use force on women to keep the unborn inside them.
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03-04-2016, 01:27 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 12:23 PM)julep Wrote:  Until there is an external option for bringing fetuses to term, I think you do, actually, have to trust women to terminate pregnancies at their own discretion.

Yes, or a way to let the males do the incubating.

Would be interesting to see how the laws would evolve after that. Tongue

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03-04-2016, 01:35 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
Here are some interesting statistics: Both the view that all abortions should be legal and the view that no abortions should be legal are minority views in the US. Also, 41% of women nation-wide describe themselves as "pro-life" on the issue of abortion.

[Image: njrwl5l21ksoxa4gmq90cw.png]

Source: http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/Abortion.aspx

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03-04-2016, 01:36 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 01:35 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Here are some interesting statistics: Both the view that all abortions should be legal and the view that no abortions should be legal are minority views in the US. Also, 41% of women nation-wide describe themselves as "pro-life" on the issue of abortion.

What do the other 59% think?

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03-04-2016, 01:40 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 01:24 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 11:02 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Or I could rephrase it as

Either I trust women to commit murder at their own discretion, or I believe we should have laws enacted as a result of a justice system implemented by representatives which we elect as a society.

Now, normally I would not phrase it that way because I am well aware of the nuances and grey areas of this topic and don't want to be an antagonistic asshole who is only capable of viewing things from one perspective, but am doing so to illustrate the absurdity of pretending this is an issue which is all about sexism, which is what you are implying.
I think you are unnecessarily getting a hard time here. Your stance is quite normal. I disagree with it, but my stance is the "not so normal one".

It comes down to this "murder" term. Obviously you have taken liberties with the word because "murder" is a legal term. It is only murder if the law says it is. If the law makes late term abortion legal then it isn't murder.

But I recognise the message you are conveying, that you consider the third trimester unborn to be a "person" and you consider that "persons" ought to be protected under law. (sorry if I have your position incorrect here)

"person" is also a legal term, mind you. So appealing to "personhood" would be circular reasoning.

Pro-lifers also consider third term abortion to be "murder" regardless of what the law states. Unlike you they consider first term abortion to be "murder". They deem personhood to be at conception. Dom has stated (in a way) that she deems personhood to be at the point that that the fetus develops a nervous system and can feel pain. I have claimed (in a way) that personhood begins at conception but that personhood isn't a reason for me (or my government) to interfere.

Abortion is often a hot topic for debate, there is no definitive answer and many people are passionate about this topic. Obviously many pro-choicers recognise the benefits of abortion, the ability to get rid of an unwanted pregnancy or a defective pregnancy, abortion can be life saving, it can make life easier by allowing a teenage girl to continue with her education, it can allow a poor family to make ends meet. Pro-lifers consider all this to be "murder" by convenience. They see it as an ultimate crime by a selfish act.
You recognise that there is a "slippery slope" regarding allowing people to kill people and that at some point a law is necessary to protect people from people.

In my personal opinion, it is all about defining the purpose of law and trying to define that purpose in a way which is demonstrably objective. In my opinion claiming a certain developmental point to delineate the non person/person point is arbitrary, just a matter of personal opinion. I understand that you consider the point of birth to fit into this "arbitrary" mold.

So I think the only way to move forward on a discussion about abortion is to first define a purpose for government and law. Because it is the law that determines whether society (the police) will use force on women to keep the unborn inside them.

I agree with some of what you stated but I hold to this: At any point you force a woman to do something with her own body that she does not want she is no longer a person with rights under the law but is now a piece of property, chattel being owned and controlled by another entity, be that a person, a society or a government (i.e. slave).

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03-04-2016, 01:41 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 01:36 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 01:35 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Here are some interesting statistics: Both the view that all abortions should be legal and the view that no abortions should be legal are minority views in the US. Also, 41% of women nation-wide describe themselves as "pro-life" on the issue of abortion.

What do the other 59% think?
Of the remaining 59%, 50% consider themselves "pro-choice" and 9% gave no answer.

Source: http://www.gallup.com/poll/170249/split-...-life.aspx

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03-04-2016, 01:44 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 01:36 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 01:35 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Here are some interesting statistics: Both the view that all abortions should be legal and the view that no abortions should be legal are minority views in the US. Also, 41% of women nation-wide describe themselves as "pro-life" on the issue of abortion.

What do the other 59% think?

The important thing is that 41% of women are misogynists.
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03-04-2016, 01:45 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 01:36 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 01:35 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Here are some interesting statistics: Both the view that all abortions should be legal and the view that no abortions should be legal are minority views in the US. Also, 41% of women nation-wide describe themselves as "pro-life" on the issue of abortion.

What do the other 59% think?

77% are xtian, so we know where a lot of women get their ideas and POV from.

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03-04-2016, 01:47 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
The most significant one, though, is this one:

[Image: txgymsbhyuoqortpxi_wjw.gif]

The view that the government should allow third trimester abortions, as some have argued here, is truly a fringe view with only 8-14% support nationwide.

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