Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
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03-04-2016, 01:59 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 01:47 PM)Vosur Wrote:  The most significant one, though, is this one:

[Image: txgymsbhyuoqortpxi_wjw.gif]

The view that the government should allow third trimester abortions, as some have argued here, is truly a fringe view with only 8-14% support nationwide.

That is 4 years old, that time difference most likely is not insignificant. And it would be 18% in 2012, again not insignificant, nor a "fringe" percentage.

Where's the current data? A lot of religious anti-choice pushback has happened since 2012 and it is not going down well. The figures for 2015 could be much different.

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03-04-2016, 01:59 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 01:47 PM)Vosur Wrote:  The most significant one, though, is this one:

[Image: txgymsbhyuoqortpxi_wjw.gif]

The view that the government should allow third trimester abortions, as some have argued here, is truly a fringe view with only 8-14% support nationwide.

8-14% is hardly fringe IMO.

Sometimes I just don't get voting. This is an example. Decision to abort or not is a difficult one, should be made by parents of kid/fetus and doctor IMO. If legal framework needed, should be in consultation with doctors (i.e. experts) that it is made. Rest of us - WTF does our opinion matter? Why would some knob waving an "Abortion is murder" sign have anything useful to contribute?

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03-04-2016, 02:01 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 01:47 PM)Vosur Wrote:  The most significant one, though, is this one:

[Image: txgymsbhyuoqortpxi_wjw.gif]

The view that the government should allow third trimester abortions, as some have argued here, is truly a fringe view with only 8-14% support nationwide.

Doesn't look like that question added exceptions for the health/life of the mother and fetus. Did it?

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03-04-2016, 02:02 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 01:47 PM)Vosur Wrote:  The most significant one, though, is this one:

[Image: txgymsbhyuoqortpxi_wjw.gif]

The view that the government should allow third trimester abortions, as some have argued here, is truly a fringe view with only 8-14% support nationwide.

According to Wikipedia, although this is not a super great source, across the board in countries that track the statistics, only about !% or fewer of all abortions occur in the third trimester. The most common reasons given for abortions at this date are: women who are "raising children alone, were depressed or using illicit substances, were in conflict with a male partner or experiencing domestic violence, had trouble deciding and then had access problems, or were young and nulliparous."

So you are talking, in reality, about a very small percentage of all abortions entirely, and many fewer than that if you are talking about women who suddenly decide being pregnant is an inconvenience they want to avoid.

I am not okay with abortion restrictions in terms of trimesters, but I would be much more okay with them if there weren't so many hurdles in the way of women who wanted to terminate well before the third trimester. Make it easy for a woman to terminate in the first and second trimesters and it's a different scenario.
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03-04-2016, 02:20 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 01:59 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  That is 4 years old, that time difference most likely is not insignificant. And it would be 18% in 2012, again not insignificant, nor a "fringe" percentage.

Where's the current data? A lot of religious anti-choice pushback has happened since 2012 and it is not going down well. The figures for 2015 could be much different.
That's a good question. It almost looks like Gallup stopped asking people that question after 2012 because they have more recent data from 2013, 2014 and 2015 for many of their other questions.

That being said, you can call it "fringe" or whatever you like, the fact is that the vast, overwhelming majority of people agree that a women should not be allowed to have an abortion after a certain point in her pregnancy. The sheer amount of numbers show that this is not because of misogyny (e.g. because they want women to be chattel), but because they recognize that the first, second and third three months of a pregnancy are not all equivalent. When you're talking about an abortion in the third trimester, you're no longer talking about killing an amorphous clump of cells, you're talking about killing a viable human child. I don't know how to get across the point that the other side in this thread has been making any more clearer than that.

It's an issue of morality, not sexism.

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03-04-2016, 02:23 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 02:01 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 01:47 PM)Vosur Wrote:  The most significant one, though, is this one:

[Image: txgymsbhyuoqortpxi_wjw.gif]

The view that the government should allow third trimester abortions, as some have argued here, is truly a fringe view with only 8-14% support nationwide.

Doesn't look like that question added exceptions for the health/life of the mother and fetus. Did it?
It sort of did. Anyone who thinks there should be such exceptions would have chosen "Depends", no?

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03-04-2016, 02:26 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 02:20 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 01:59 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  That is 4 years old, that time difference most likely is not insignificant. And it would be 18% in 2012, again not insignificant, nor a "fringe" percentage.

Where's the current data? A lot of religious anti-choice pushback has happened since 2012 and it is not going down well. The figures for 2015 could be much different.
That's a good question. It almost looks like Gallup stopped asking people that question after 2012 because they have more recent data from 2013, 2014 and 2015 for many of their other questions.

That being said, you can call it "fringe" or whatever you like, the fact is that the vast, overwhelming majority of people agree that a women should not be allowed to have an abortion after a certain point in her pregnancy. The sheer amount of numbers show that this is not because of misogyny (e.g. because they want women to be chattel), but because they recognize that the first, second and third three months of a pregnancy are not all equivalent. When you're talking about an abortion in the third trimester, you're no longer talking about killing an amorphous clump of cells, you're talking about killing a viable human child. I don't know how to get across the point that the other side in this thread has been making any more clearer than that.

It's an issue of morality, not sexism.

You cannot in good conscience state that you "know" that. As I stated earlier when you posted the first graph, 77% are xtian and they are indoctrinated with sexism. I would say with that percentage of indoctrination that makes it clearly sexism, from both genders but sexism just the same.

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03-04-2016, 02:51 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 02:26 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  You cannot in good conscience state that you "know" that. As I stated earlier when you posted the first graph, 77% are xtian and they are indoctrinated with sexism. I would say with that percentage of indoctrination that makes it clearly sexism, from both genders but sexism just the same.
You'll have to clarify something for me before I can respond to this. Are you saying that women are being indoctrinated into rejecting abortion in general or only into rejecting second and third trimester ones?

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03-04-2016, 03:01 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 02:51 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 02:26 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  You cannot in good conscience state that you "know" that. As I stated earlier when you posted the first graph, 77% are xtian and they are indoctrinated with sexism. I would say with that percentage of indoctrination that makes it clearly sexism, from both genders but sexism just the same.
You'll have to clarify something for me before I can respond to this. Are you saying that women are being indoctrinated into rejecting abortion in general or only into rejecting second and third trimester ones?

Both from what I've seen but that's anecdotal.

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03-04-2016, 03:14 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 01:59 PM)morondog Wrote:  Sometimes I just don't get voting. This is an example. Decision to abort or not is a difficult one, should be made by parents of kid/fetus and doctor IMO. If legal framework needed, should be in consultation with doctors (i.e. experts) that it is made. Rest of us - WTF does our opinion matter? Why would some knob waving an "Abortion is murder" sign have anything useful to contribute?
You bring up an interesting point there with that choice of word. The way things currently stand, only one parent has a say over whether or not to abort. Should the father have a say in it, legally speaking? Well, yes, no, maybe. You could run into some ugly slippery slopes if you went down that route. However, I also don't think that a father who has hard proof that he did not want the child prior to its birth should be obligated to pay child support since he currently has no say over whether or not the child gets to live. It would help "balance the scales" a little bit.

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