Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
03-04-2016, 03:18 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 03:01 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 02:51 PM)Vosur Wrote:  You'll have to clarify something for me before I can respond to this. Are you saying that women are being indoctrinated into rejecting abortion in general or only into rejecting second and third trimester ones?

Both from what I've seen but that's anecdotal.
Well, that confuses me a bit... Huh

Consider

Yeah, I don't really know where to go from here. On what religious grounds would a Christian have cause to reject second and third trimester abortions, but not first trimester ones? That's really strange.

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2016, 03:21 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 03:14 PM)Vosur Wrote:  You bring up an interesting point there with that choice of word. The way things currently stand, only one parent has a say over whether or not to abort. Should the father have a say in it, legally speaking?

I know it to be fact in MD.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2016, 03:24 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 02:20 PM)Vosur Wrote:  It's an issue of morality, not sexism.
There-in lies the problem.

Whose moral beliefs are the authoritative ones?
If you are talking about a majority vote, does that even make sense?

A woman, let's call her Lucy, is in a particular situation and has deemed it that she wants/needs an abortion.
Are you saying that Lucy needs to make her case at a village meeting and then we get everyone to vote on Lucy's fate?

Is it our decision, or is it hers?
Who is it that has to live with the consequences of that decision?
How do those consequences impact those that voted on this matter?

If you don't think it is a vote thing, then perhaps we ought to nominate a moral authority? The Pope claims to be the moral authority, he says that he is divinely guided. Are there any other people who are up for nomination? The Dali Lama perhaps?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2016, 03:32 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 01:40 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  At any point you force a woman to do something with her own body that she does not want she is no longer a person with rights under the law but is now a piece of property, chattel being owned and controlled by another entity, be that a person, a society or a government (i.e. slave).
'Tis a fantastic point.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Stevil's post
03-04-2016, 04:33 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 02:20 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 01:59 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  That is 4 years old, that time difference most likely is not insignificant. And it would be 18% in 2012, again not insignificant, nor a "fringe" percentage.

Where's the current data? A lot of religious anti-choice pushback has happened since 2012 and it is not going down well. The figures for 2015 could be much different.
That's a good question. It almost looks like Gallup stopped asking people that question after 2012 because they have more recent data from 2013, 2014 and 2015 for many of their other questions.

That being said, you can call it "fringe" or whatever you like, the fact is that the vast, overwhelming majority of people agree that a women should not be allowed to have an abortion after a certain point in her pregnancy. The sheer amount of numbers show that this is not because of misogyny (e.g. because they want women to be chattel), but because they recognize that the first, second and third three months of a pregnancy are not all equivalent. When you're talking about an abortion in the third trimester, you're no longer talking about killing an amorphous clump of cells, you're talking about killing a viable human child. I don't know how to get across the point that the other side in this thread has been making any more clearer than that.

It's an issue of morality, not sexism.

While I do agree mostly with what you said. I would say a "possibly" viable child.

There are reasons some women might abort into the third trimester and those are mostly for defects that are insurmountable and vastly reduce the infants quality of life. It's not very uncommon for a poor woman to not have stellar prenatal care and such an issue to go unnoticed. Again, while heartbreaking, it does happen and should be left to the doctor and his patient to decide and not be a platform for political asshats to sound off.

Then there are women who during the second trimester develop conditions like preeclampsia, which can lead to maternal death if ignored and in extreme cases does end with abortion (essentially to save the life of the mother).


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Momsurroundedbyboys's post
03-04-2016, 06:27 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
This came up on my FB page and reflects how I feel about pro-choice.

[Image: MQMQ3ew.jpg?1]

[Image: dnw9krH.jpg?4]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like Heatheness's post
03-04-2016, 06:31 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
My personal stance on abortion is abortion should be for whatever reason until the time the fetus is viable outside the mothers body, then it should transition into medical reasons only.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Hobbitgirl's post
03-04-2016, 07:13 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 12:17 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 12:09 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  You deliberately removed the context of that quote for the purpose of perpetuating misinformation. I suspect misandry. Drinking Beverage


Oh, I don't mind putting it in, in it's entirety, the context is the same. Sexism is still sexism no matter how verbose. I just chose brevity to be concise but here, allow me.

Quote:Or I could rephrase it as

Either I trust women to commit murder at their own discretion, or I believe we should have laws enacted as a result of a justice system implemented by representatives which we elect as a society.

Now, normally I would not phrase it that way because I am well aware of the nuances and grey areas of this topic and don't want to be an antagonistic asshole who is only capable of viewing things from one perspective, but am doing so to illustrate the absurdity of pretending this is an issue which is all about sexism, which is what you are implying.

And based on this quote of yours... ... I would suspect misogyny as well. I could be wrong but I'm not.

You still conveniently left out the part I was responding to, which is was the entire reason why I wrote it that way I did, as my quote indicates.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2016, 07:15 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 06:31 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  My personal stance on abortion is abortion should be for whatever reason until the time the fetus is viable outside the mothers body, then it should transition into medical reasons only.

That's pretty much the reasonable position. Thumbsup

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like GirlyMan's post
03-04-2016, 07:27 PM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2016 07:54 PM by Dark Light.)
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 01:24 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 11:02 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Or I could rephrase it as

Either I trust women to commit murder at their own discretion, or I believe we should have laws enacted as a result of a justice system implemented by representatives which we elect as a society.

Now, normally I would not phrase it that way because I am well aware of the nuances and grey areas of this topic and don't want to be an antagonistic asshole who is only capable of viewing things from one perspective, but am doing so to illustrate the absurdity of pretending this is an issue which is all about sexism, which is what you are implying.
I think you are unnecessarily getting a hard time here. Your stance is quite normal. I disagree with it, but my stance is the "not so normal one".

It comes down to this "murder" term. Obviously you have taken liberties with the word because "murder" is a legal term. It is only murder if the law says it is. If the law makes late term abortion legal then it isn't murder.

But I recognise the message you are conveying, that you consider the third trimester unborn to be a "person" and you consider that "persons" ought to be protected under law. (sorry if I have your position incorrect here)

"person" is also a legal term, mind you. So appealing to "personhood" would be circular reasoning.

Pro-lifers also consider third term abortion to be "murder" regardless of what the law states. Unlike you they consider first term abortion to be "murder". They deem personhood to be at conception. Dom has stated (in a way) that she deems personhood to be at the point that that the fetus develops a nervous system and can feel pain. I have claimed (in a way) that personhood begins at conception but that personhood isn't a reason for me (or my government) to interfere.

Abortion is often a hot topic for debate, there is no definitive answer and many people are passionate about this topic. Obviously many pro-choicers recognise the benefits of abortion, the ability to get rid of an unwanted pregnancy or a defective pregnancy, abortion can be life saving, it can make life easier by allowing a teenage girl to continue with her education, it can allow a poor family to make ends meet. Pro-lifers consider all this to be "murder" by convenience. They see it as an ultimate crime by a selfish act.
You recognise that there is a "slippery slope" regarding allowing people to kill people and that at some point a law is necessary to protect people from people.

In my personal opinion, it is all about defining the purpose of law and trying to define that purpose in a way which is demonstrably objective. In my opinion claiming a certain developmental point to delineate the non person/person point is arbitrary, just a matter of personal opinion. I understand that you consider the point of birth to fit into this "arbitrary" mold.

So I think the only way to move forward on a discussion about abortion is to first define a purpose for government and law. Because it is the law that determines whether society (the police) will use force on women to keep the unborn inside them.

No, Stevil, I think you are one of the few people who do understand my position on the forum thus far. You have identified the most problematic areas with abortion. I am open to changing my mind on exactly when abortion should be allowed or not allowed, I do not know if third trimester should or shouldn't be the end date, perhaps before, perhaps after the beginning of the third trimester. My personal view also allows for late term abortions in situations where a there is reason to believe it could be dangerous for the mother, or perhaps other circumstances. I am a man of reason, and as a man of reason I can be appealed to change my mind based on reasonable arguments. Too often the arguments are made by appealing to emotion. It is certainly a complex issue as I do not want to infringe on any woman's rights, or force her to do something with her body she does not wish to do, but at the same time I consider fetuses to be valuable and deserving similar rights at some point in the pregnancy (newly born babies are not more capable of being independant than fetuses). The difference, in most cases (excluding rape) is that the mother took on some responsibility for the life simply by having sex. The child did not have a choice as to whether it was conceived or not.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Dark Light's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: