Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
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03-04-2016, 07:30 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 01:35 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Here are some interesting statistics: Both the view that all abortions should be legal and the view that no abortions should be legal are minority views in the US. Also, 41% of women nation-wide describe themselves as "pro-life" on the issue of abortion.

[Image: njrwl5l21ksoxa4gmq90cw.png]

Source: http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/Abortion.aspx

Wow! There are a lot of misogynist women in the country!

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03-04-2016, 08:17 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
@Dark Light

I am pretty surpised that you don't perceive the capacity of a baby to breath on his own and feed from many sources without having to «parasite» a mother as a insignificant change between a baby and a fetus. I am just as surprised that you perceive the fact that babies can have interraction with their society (and vice versa) while a fetus can't as minor changes. Why do you consider these two changes very small?

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03-04-2016, 08:35 PM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2016 02:40 PM by Dark Light.)
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 08:17 PM)epronovost Wrote:  @Dark Light

I am pretty surpised that you don't perceive the capacity of a baby to breath on his own and feed from many sources without having to «parasite» a mother as a insignificant change between a baby and a fetus. I am just as surprised that you perceive the fact that babies can have interraction with their society (and vice versa) while a fetus can't as minor changes. Why do you consider these two changes very small?

Why do you say a child must be born to interact with society? That is far from true, but even if it were so, that has no impact whatsoever on how valuable it is. I can't go to the mountains a shoot a hermit in the face legally because he/she doesn't interact with society.

To call a fetus a parasite is untrue as well. The only thing a fetus has in common with a parasite is that it get's its nutrients from another living being. Babies often do this for 6 months after being born, and even later. This is what we evolved to do. Some children nurse exclusively for much longer. Using this as your criteria you are back to having the problem of defending killing babies after birth.

Similar for your "breathing" epiphany. The child get's is oxygen from mommy. This does not in anyway make the life of the fetus less valuable to me.
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03-04-2016, 08:50 PM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2016 08:58 PM by epronovost.)
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 08:35 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 08:17 PM)epronovost Wrote:  @Dark Light

I am pretty surpised that you don't perceive the capacity of a baby to breath on his own and feed from many sources without having to «parasite» a mother as a insignificant change between a baby and a fetus. I am just as surprised that you perceive the fact that babies can have interraction with their society (and vice versa) while a fetus can't as minor changes. Why do you consider these two changes very small?

Why do you say a child must be born to interact with society? That is far from true, but even if it were so, that has no impact whatsoever on how valuable it is. I can't go to the mountains a shoot a hermit in the face legally because he/she doesn't interact with society.

To call a fetus a parasite is untrue as well. The only thing a fetus has in common with a parasite is that it get's its nutrients from another living being. Babies often do this for 6 months after being born, and even later. This is what we evolved to do. Some children nurse exclusively for much longer. Using this as your criteria you are back to having the problem of defending kill babies after birth.

Similar for your "breathing" epiphany. The child get's is oxygen from mommy. This does not in anyway make the life of the fetus less valuable to me.

Did you ever held a fetus in your arm? Did you ever talked to a fetus who could actually hear you? Could a fetus see you? Could you interract with a fetus, but not with a mother at the same time? Can a fetus touch you? Can you ear a fetus cry? Can it demand things with those different types of scream and cry? This is interracting with society. A fetus cannot do those thing by definition. An hermit can, he just doesn't want to. Your comparison isn't very good.

A fetus can only breath through his mother, can only feed through his mother. A baby breath on his own and can feed on any women producing milk or from any maternise milk solution (or easily digestible food). If mom dies, a fetus dies within 10 minutes max. If mom dies a baby is just fine as long someone else can hear him cry for help and he/she has a few days to be heard.

PS: getting food and nutrition from a host organism is the textbook definition of parasite. That's exactly what a fetus does. In fact, a fetus is more detrimental to health and general wellbeing of women than a tick. That's why a women immune system will sometime attack and attempt to kill a developing fetus (though it's rather rare). Note that a fetus isn't a parasite, but it has many points in common.

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03-04-2016, 08:51 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 08:35 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Similar for your "breathing" epiphany. The child get's is oxygen from mommy. This does not in anyway make the life of the fetus less valuable to me.
How do you determine the value of someone else's unborn to you?
Let's say your 16 year old neighbor got pregnant (Assume here that you aren't the father). Your neighbor doesn't interact with you. You don't even know each other's name. You don't know anything about her, you don't know if she is married, you don't know who the father is, or if he will be around to help the mother and child. You don't know the impact on this 16 year old's life this baby will have, whether it will stop her furthering her education.
You probably won't have anything to do with this girl after her baby is born. In fact, her family is moving to a different city next week and you probably will never see her again, so you wn't even know if she has the baby, aborts it, or gives it up for adoption. You'll never know it's name. You certainly won't take care of this baby and if you did meet it later in life, you won't even recognise it.

So please explain how this baby presents personal value to you and why this value to you supercedes the mother's choices.
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03-04-2016, 09:00 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 08:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 08:35 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Similar for your "breathing" epiphany. The child get's is oxygen from mommy. This does not in anyway make the life of the fetus less valuable to me.
How do you determine the value of someone else's unborn to you?
Let's say your 16 year old neighbor got pregnant (Assume here that you aren't the father). Your neighbor doesn't interact with you. You don't even know each other's name. You don't know anything about her, you don't know if she is married, you don't know who the father is, or if he will be around to help the mother and child. You don't know the impact on this 16 year old's life this baby will have, whether it will stop her furthering her education.
You probably won't have anything to do with this girl after her baby is born. In fact, her family is moving to a different city next week and you probably will never see her again, so you wn't even know if she has the baby, aborts it, or gives it up for adoption. You'll never know it's name. You certainly won't take care of this baby and if you did meet it later in life, you won't even recognise it.

So please explain how this baby presents personal value to you and why this value to you supercedes the mother's choices.

I'm assuming that in the scenario I am also to presume that girl is late into the pregnancy so as to challenge my opinion, so with that presumption in place I'd say...

I would put the same value on this strangers unborn child as even I had never met the mother, and the same value as a baby already born on the other side of the world. I've said this before, but I will say it again. I see little difference in the importance of a baby 1 hour before being born, or one hour after being born. Hopefully this answered your question.

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03-04-2016, 09:21 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 09:00 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  I'm assuming that in the scenario I am also to presume that girl is late into the pregnancy so as to challenge my opinion,
Yes, correct presumption.
(03-04-2016 09:00 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  so with that presumption in place I'd say...

I would put the same value on this strangers unborn child as even I had never met the mother, and the same value as a baby already born on the other side of the world. I've said this before, but I will say it again. I see little difference in the importance of a baby 1 hour before being born, or one hour after being born. Hopefully this answered your question.

I'm still not quite seeing the value to you personally. Would you cry or feel sad having heard that an (unnamed) woman half a world away had a late term abortion?
How long will it take you to get over your sadness and be able to move on with the rest of your life?
What impact do you think there is on this woman, based on A) she has the baby, B) she aborts the baby?
Whose life is impacted more, you or her?
How much impact to you think she experiences? How long do you think it will take her to get over this? Will she ever get over it?

Whose decision should it be? Yours or hers?
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03-04-2016, 09:40 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 03:14 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I also don't think that a father who has hard proof that he did not want the child prior to its birth should be obligated to pay child support since he currently has no say over whether or not the child gets to live.

As you say, ugly slippery slope. What proof could he offer? "Here's an email dated 5 July where I urged her to get an abortion". There's no way to judge then how serious he was - maybe in full knowledge of the law and that she wouldn't abort he sent the email just to give himself an out and avoid paying child support (People *will* definitely try shit like that if it were to become law). I think it would be unusual to have hard-copy dated proof like that, most of those discussions (I would guess) would take place face to face.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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03-04-2016, 09:56 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 09:40 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 03:14 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I also don't think that a father who has hard proof that he did not want the child prior to its birth should be obligated to pay child support since he currently has no say over whether or not the child gets to live.

As you say, ugly slippery slope. What proof could he offer? "Here's an email dated 5 July where I urged her to get an abortion". There's no way to judge then how serious he was - maybe in full knowledge of the law and that she wouldn't abort he sent the email just to give himself an out and avoid paying child support (People *will* definitely try shit like that if it were to become law). I think it would be unusual to have hard-copy dated proof like that, most of those discussions (I would guess) would take place face to face.

There's always a risk of pregnacy as long as the people involved have working parts. A man knows that risk just as much as he knows the outcome is at her discretion. When he agrees to sex he is agreeing to the risks and his place in the decision making.

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03-04-2016, 10:04 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(03-04-2016 09:21 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(03-04-2016 09:00 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  I'm assuming that in the scenario I am also to presume that girl is late into the pregnancy so as to challenge my opinion,
Yes, correct presumption.
(03-04-2016 09:00 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  so with that presumption in place I'd say...

I would put the same value on this strangers unborn child as even I had never met the mother, and the same value as a baby already born on the other side of the world. I've said this before, but I will say it again. I see little difference in the importance of a baby 1 hour before being born, or one hour after being born. Hopefully this answered your question.

I'm still not quite seeing the value to you personally. Would you cry or feel sad having heard that an (unnamed) woman half a world away had a late term abortion?
How long will it take you to get over your sadness and be able to move on with the rest of your life?
What impact do you think there is on this woman, based on A) she has the baby, B) she aborts the baby?
Whose life is impacted more, you or her?
How much impact to you think she experiences? How long do you think it will take her to get over this? Will she ever get over it?

Whose decision should it be? Yours or hers?

Fuck - a lot of questions. Okay - here we go.

No
N/A
There will be a great impact either way for most women in this situation, but it depends on their own beliefs as well as what happens afterward. There are far too many unknowns to answer this question intelligently whatever the choice and the whatever the unknown circumstances. Based on this question I'm also presuming this is in an imagined alternate universe where late abortions are not illegal and there is no chance of facing legal consequences. Regardless, there are too many known unknowns, and possibly even unknown unknowns.
Same as above.
Same as above.
I've been pretty clear on this. You know the answer to this. You've acknowledged your understanding of this previously.
Neither.

Additionally I think I will try to get to the root of what I believe you're trying to get at as I'm sure you'll be disappointed in my answers above.

Do I have some personal connection with a baby half way round the world? No. Do I still think their life is worth protecting? Absolutely. I wouldn't shed a tear after hearing about the death of a great many number of people that I actually know and like. I can tour a holocaust museum complete with graphic pictures of dead babies the Nazis experimented on without crying. I don't have to have an emotional investment in a child in order to determine their life as worth protecting.

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