Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
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05-04-2016, 11:50 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(05-04-2016 09:15 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(05-04-2016 07:19 PM)Dom Wrote:  It is not possible to be not viable and alive at the same time. You gots to make your picks, like it or not.
I don't understand this statement.
When we say that a 10 week old fetus is not viable, we mean that it is not viable to survive if we remove it from the woman's womb.
It has a heart beat, it has a functioning brain, it has it's own DNA, it is growing and moving. If that's not alive then, wow, I don't seem to know what alive means.

It may be alive, but certainly not independently so. If independence is not a criterion, then at what point do you preserve the sanctity of life? A cell is alive. I doesn't have its own "heart" nor its own "brain", but it does have analogues, and it has the other attributes you mention.

I get your confusion about Dom's comment -- it seems a little baffling to me as well -- but defining life in your terms seems to be overly broad.
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06-04-2016, 03:31 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(05-04-2016 11:50 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  at what point do you preserve the sanctity of life?
I have no interest in preserving the sanctity of life.

Sanctity is a foreign word to me, which is why I don't deem it strong enough to invoke me to interfere in the woman's business. She does what she does, if she has an abortion or not, it is her business, not mine.

Who am I to interfere? I am not a superhero, it is not my place to save the world, to save the innocent.
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06-04-2016, 03:48 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(06-04-2016 03:31 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(05-04-2016 11:50 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  at what point do you preserve the sanctity of life?
I have no interest in preserving the sanctity of life.

Sanctity is a foreign word to me, which is why I don't deem it strong enough to invoke me to interfere in the woman's business. She does what she does, if she has an abortion or not, it is her business, not mine.

Who am I to interfere? I am not a superhero, it is not my place to save the world, to save the innocent.

Um. I think social stuff comes into it eventually. Sure we're not here to save the world but we do expect to live in a nice society where we don't kill people randomly. Otherwise who are you to interfere with ISIS, or even to vote for someone who will, as long as they leave you alone?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-04-2016, 05:16 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(06-04-2016 03:31 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(05-04-2016 11:50 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  at what point do you preserve the sanctity of life?
I have no interest in preserving the sanctity of life.

Sanctity is a foreign word to me, which is why I don't deem it strong enough to invoke me to interfere in the woman's business. She does what she does, if she has an abortion or not, it is her business, not mine.

Who am I to interfere? I am not a superhero, it is not my place to save the world, to save the innocent.

I'm totally with you on the whole "sanctity" of life. Nothing is sacred. But I'm interested in your last statement here. You say that you are no superhero, and it is not your place to save innocents, yet you would interfere and save an innocent if it is 1 year old, just like a superhero. So which is it, superhero or not? Why not leave an infanticidal woman to her own devices and let her family sort it out? What if it's a case where the father is not around, and the woman has no other family members for support (or to attack her when she kills the infant)?
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06-04-2016, 05:42 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(05-04-2016 11:50 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(05-04-2016 09:15 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I don't understand this statement.
When we say that a 10 week old fetus is not viable, we mean that it is not viable to survive if we remove it from the woman's womb.
It has a heart beat, it has a functioning brain, it has it's own DNA, it is growing and moving. If that's not alive then, wow, I don't seem to know what alive means.

It may be alive, but certainly not independently so. If independence is not a criterion, then at what point do you preserve the sanctity of life? A cell is alive. I doesn't have its own "heart" nor its own "brain", but it does have analogues, and it has the other attributes you mention.

I get your confusion about Dom's comment -- it seems a little baffling to me as well -- but defining life in your terms seems to be overly broad.

I agree. It is alive in the sense that living cells are alive, individually or as a cluster, but it s not an living functioning entity until it is able to live without the assist of the female. Abortion is not of a matter of "killed it" and more of a "don't let it develop" into a being or an entity.

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06-04-2016, 05:55 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(06-04-2016 05:42 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(05-04-2016 11:50 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  It may be alive, but certainly not independently so. If independence is not a criterion, then at what point do you preserve the sanctity of life? A cell is alive. I doesn't have its own "heart" nor its own "brain", but it does have analogues, and it has the other attributes you mention.

I get your confusion about Dom's comment -- it seems a little baffling to me as well -- but defining life in your terms seems to be overly broad.

I agree. It is alive in the sense that living cells are alive, individually or as a cluster, but it s not an living functioning entity until it is able to live without the assist of the female. Abortion is not of a matter of "killed it" and more of a "don't let it develop" into a being or an entity.

I think you're hung up on the word "kill". Perhaps you think that killing is immoral, so you don't want that label attached to abortion? A fetus can be either alive, or dead. When a fetus dies, we call that miscarriage. When a fetus is killed, we call that abortion.

When a person causes something that is alive to become dead, I think "kill" is the only appropriate word.
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06-04-2016, 06:34 AM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2016 06:45 AM by epronovost.)
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(06-04-2016 05:55 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(06-04-2016 05:42 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  I agree. It is alive in the sense that living cells are alive, individually or as a cluster, but it s not an living functioning entity until it is able to live without the assist of the female. Abortion is not of a matter of "killed it" and more of a "don't let it develop" into a being or an entity.

I think you're hung up on the word "kill". Perhaps you think that killing is immoral, so you don't want that label attached to abortion? A fetus can be either alive, or dead. When a fetus dies, we call that miscarriage. When a fetus is killed, we call that abortion.

When a person causes something that is alive to become dead, I think "kill" is the only appropriate word.

In my opinion both of you can be right. Heatheness seems to use the word kill in the context of abortion as «the killing of a human life» while you use it in the sense of «putting an end to a biological process». In my opinion, Heatheness is correct by saying that killing a fetus doesn't equate the killing of a human life since the fetus has none, or very few, of the characteristics of that makes human life different, thus more valuable in our eyes, than ape life or dog life. You are also correct in saying that an abortion is terminating a biological process, thus a form of killing. Basically, an abortion is a refine, more precise term to describe a certain form of killing.

PS: a miscarriage is also killing. You don't need to intent to kill to do it. Most miscarriage are caused by the immune system of the mother rejecting the embryo, the embryo failling to attach itself safely to the uterus and thus expelled in a routine fahion by the women's body, chromosomal abnormalities where an embryo makes a copying mistake and kills itself (generaly caused by unhealthy sperm or egg and kind of like a micro-cancer), killed by health problem in the mother (most common being diabetes and thyroid problems), a more and more frequent one apparently would be women with high level of testosterone which causes all sort of problem for the developping embryo. An abortion is nothing more than forcing a miscarriage. In both cases, the fetus is killed. The only difference is how.

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06-04-2016, 06:44 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(06-04-2016 06:34 AM)epronovost Wrote:  
(06-04-2016 05:55 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  I think you're hung up on the word "kill". Perhaps you think that killing is immoral, so you don't want that label attached to abortion? A fetus can be either alive, or dead. When a fetus dies, we call that miscarriage. When a fetus is killed, we call that abortion.

When a person causes something that is alive to become dead, I think "kill" is the only appropriate word.

In my opinion both of you can be right. Heatheness seems to use the word kill in the context of abortion as «the killing of a human life» while you use it in the sense of «putting an end to a biological process». In my opinion, Heatheness is correct by saying that killing a fetus doesn't equate the killing of a human life since the fetus has none, or very few, of the characteristics of that makes human life different, thus more valuable in our eyes, than ape life or dog life. You are also correct in saying that an abortion is terminating a biological process, thus a form of killing. Basically, an abortion is a refine, more precise term to describe a certain form of killing.

Yes, my mole is alive and can't live without being attached to me but when I have it removed no one calls it killing it. I simply stopped it's growth and discarded the remains.

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06-04-2016, 07:15 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
As a side note I don't have an issue with the word killing. I'm a farm girl, killing is part of living. Most people have little experience with it beyond bugs or spiders, not so me.

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06-04-2016, 07:19 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
Funny how we've drifted from the OP. What news from planet Trump these days?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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