Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
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31-03-2016, 08:55 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(30-03-2016 03:29 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(30-03-2016 01:55 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  So...IF abortion were made illegal (key word ILLEGAL) Trump says the woman obtaining an illegal abortion should receive a criminal penalty?

That's outrageous. I can't believe that someone running for president would advocate the idea that all citizens follow laws.

In the past when it was illegal, doctors who performed the procedure carried the risk and not the women seeking procurement -- since a decent number died from botched abortions -- or became deathly ill after.

Yeah because women just do it by themselves. Drinking Beverage

I'm tempted to call you a dumbass, but it won't do a bit of good.

I knew a woman who threw herself down a flight a stairs to self abort. I guess she'd be arrested too and tossed in jail, instead of receiving all that pesky help she desperately needed.

Although I strongly dislike Trump, I interpreted the question to be in reference to women seeking out abortions after legally allowed to do so. I don't know the law exactly, but I think after 4 months or so is the cut off, so a woman getting an illegal abortion, say seven or eight months into the pregnancy would be punished. I don't think this sounds crazy at all myself. Now, if you want change the law and make abortions legal until the moment of birth, for example, then there would be no punishment for anyone, and that would be fine (from a legal perspective, not necessarily moral)- but that's not where we are with the law and that is a separate debate altogether.

Look at it from another perspective. If a doctor intentionally, or otherwise, terminates or accidentally causes harm to a wanted fetus he or she is libel for his actions will receive legal action. What this says is that the fetus, at some point, is protected under the law as a person. People who are harmed should have justice in the legal system when a person or persons harm, or conspire to kill him or her. The more defenseless the more important this is.

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31-03-2016, 10:11 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(31-03-2016 08:55 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Look at it from another perspective. If a doctor intentionally, or otherwise, terminates or accidentally causes harm to a wanted fetus he or she is libel for his actions will receive legal action. What this says is that the fetus, at some point, is protected under the law as a person. People who are harmed should have justice in the legal system when a person or persons harm, or conspire to kill him or her. The more defenseless the more important this is.

Determining factor there is the will of the mother. It's not that the fetus becomes a legal entity, it's that the doctor caused harm to the mother.

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31-03-2016, 11:35 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(31-03-2016 08:55 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Now, if you want change the law and make abortions legal until the moment of birth, for example, then there would be no punishment for anyone, and that would be fine (from a legal perspective, not necessarily moral)
Given that there is no authority or definitive source with regards to what is moral or not, it is a waste of time to consider whether it is moral or not for other people to have abortions. Whether it is moral or not is certainly not a question law makers ought to be asking.
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31-03-2016, 11:51 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
Trump could have provided a considered response to the question. Instead he mouthed off with a response that would appeal to the anti-abortion fuckheads, then issued a 'clarification' later. It's a good media tactic. His initial response generates a media frenzy, he later backs off but (wink-wink) everyone knows he just did that to keep the stupid newspeople happy.

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01-04-2016, 04:28 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(31-03-2016 11:35 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(31-03-2016 08:55 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Now, if you want change the law and make abortions legal until the moment of birth, for example, then there would be no punishment for anyone, and that would be fine (from a legal perspective, not necessarily moral)
Given that there is no authority or definitive source with regards to what is moral or not, it is a waste of time to consider whether it is moral or not for other people to have abortions. Whether it is moral or not is certainly not a question law makers ought to be asking.
Well, that's not a counter to what I have said, but it's a ridiculous statement on its own. First, let me explain that the morality argument is something I deliberately said is irrelevant for the purposes of this issue. It is the law that matters when it comes to crime and punishment and under current laws you cannot have an abortion for any reason at any time.

The rest of statement implies that Philosophy is a waste of time because there is no absolute truths to be had. So what? We will make it true for us. Laws should be based solely on what is believed to be moral. The is the thing which lawmakers should primarily be concerned with. When laws become immoral it is the duty of it's citizens to not follow those laws, and the duty of the state to carry out the punishments.

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01-04-2016, 05:01 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(31-03-2016 10:11 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(31-03-2016 08:55 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Look at it from another perspective. If a doctor intentionally, or otherwise, terminates or accidentally causes harm to a wanted fetus he or she is libel for his actions will receive legal action. What this says is that the fetus, at some point, is protected under the law as a person. People who are harmed should have justice in the legal system when a person or persons harm, or conspire to kill him or her. The more defenseless the more important this is.

Determining factor there is the will of the mother. It's not that the fetus becomes a legal entity, it's that the doctor caused harm to the mother.


Exactly, if a doctor intentionally or otherwise accidently causes harm to a woman's liver or other internal organs or any part of her body, he or she is libel for their actions and subject to legal actions. Doctors are arrested or sued for their medical malpractice every day. They can and are accountable for what the patient views as harm to themselves.

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01-04-2016, 01:49 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(01-04-2016 04:28 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  First, let me explain that the morality argument is something I deliberately said is irrelevant for the purposes of this issue.
And yet you brought it up. Even though you say that it is irrelevant, you brought it up for some reason.

(01-04-2016 04:28 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  The rest of statement implies that Philosophy is a waste of time because there is no absolute truths to be had. So what?
Philosophy don't rank high in my list of important things

(01-04-2016 04:28 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Laws should be based solely on what is believed to be moral.
Believed by who?
Why should others be forced to live by that person's moral beliefs?

Why would you want to support a system where the population are forced to obey the moral beliefs of others?



(01-04-2016 04:28 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  When laws become immoral it is the duty of it's citizens to not follow those laws, and the duty of the state to carry out the punishments.
Who in particular gets to decide what is an immoral law?
Why on earth is it the duty of citizens not to follow immoral laws?
I have no such duty. Who gets to decide what my duties are?
So what if I don't carry out my duties, what is the consequence on me?

What is the purpose of punishment? Does our government fill the position of god? Do they decide what is moral and immoral, do they watch and judge and give out judgement?

This is a very weird view of the purpose of government.
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01-04-2016, 03:38 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(31-03-2016 11:51 PM)morondog Wrote:  Trump could have provided a considered response to the question. Instead he mouthed off with a response that would appeal to the anti-abortion fuckheads, then issued a 'clarification' later. It's a good media tactic. His initial response generates a media frenzy, he later backs off but (wink-wink) everyone knows he just did that to keep the stupid newspeople happy.
It's also how the Pope's pr has been going.

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01-04-2016, 03:41 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(01-04-2016 01:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  And yet you brought it up. Even though you say that it is irrelevant, you brought it up for some reason.
I brought it up for the very reason of clarifying that I was speaking of legality rather than morality.

(01-04-2016 01:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Philosophy don't rank high in my list of important things
If true, then this is where we differ, but I doubt it's not actually true. Philosophy is a father of morality, so if morals are important to you then Philosophy is by extension.

(01-04-2016 01:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Believed by who?
Why should others be forced to live by that person's moral beliefs?

Why would you want to support a system where the population are forced to obey the moral beliefs of others?
Believed by "We the people". In an ideal world there would be no need for government because we would all treat each other well, and there would be no conflicts of interest, or grey areas. Laws, based on our collective morals, ideally protect its citizens from its citizens. That is why you should be required to follow laws, based on morals, which you do not necessarily believe. Perhaps my moral compass says tooth for a tooth and eye for an eye is just and I will dole out the punishment if an immoral act is committed on me. I am personally glad that this is not our justice system and I am glad that there are laws which prevent this type of behavior from being perpetrated.

(01-04-2016 01:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Who in particular gets to decide what is an immoral law?
Why on earth is it the duty of citizens not to follow immoral laws?
I have no such duty. Who gets to decide what my duties are?
So what if I don't carry out my duties, what is the consequence on me?
We the people. Because we shouldn't tolerate immoral acts. You do. If you want to see the consequences of following immoral laws, look at any genocide for a good example. The Holocaust of the Jews, The Ottoman Empire's genocide of the Seljuks, the Killing Fields. Of course you can find much less extreme examples are easily found as well, but those are very good examples.

(01-04-2016 01:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  What is the purpose of punishment? Does our government fill the position of god? Do they decide what is moral and immoral, do they watch and judge and give out judgement?

This is a very weird view of the purpose of government.

To deter crime. I suppose that would depend entirely on your view of an imagined God and his or her role in human affairs. I think my view of governments role is widely accepted. You're the one with the wierd view from my perspective.

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01-04-2016, 03:45 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(01-04-2016 05:01 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(31-03-2016 10:11 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Determining factor there is the will of the mother. It's not that the fetus becomes a legal entity, it's that the doctor caused harm to the mother.


Exactly, if a doctor intentionally or otherwise accidently causes harm to a woman's liver or other internal organs or any part of her body, he or she is libel for their actions and subject to legal actions. Doctors are arrested or sued for their medical malpractice every day. They can and are accountable for what the patient views as harm to themselves.

Heatheness, in your opinion what rights should a fetus have at 5 months? 7? 9? 1 Hour before exiting the vaginal canal? 1 Hour after?

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