Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
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02-04-2016, 01:54 AM (This post was last modified: 02-04-2016 02:00 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(01-04-2016 05:21 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 03:45 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Heatheness, in your opinion what rights should a fetus have at 5 months? 7? 9? 1 Hour before exiting the vaginal canal? 1 Hour after?

Fetuses don't have rights. People have rights.


People have the rights we agree they have. Rights aren't universal or inherent (sorry founding fathers, but you where wrong on this one), they are granted; and we can grant those rights to other things, even if we don't apply them consistently. Your pets have a greater 'right to life' and legal protections than chickens on a farm. The ethical quandaries of eating scrambled eggs isn't burning up our justice system in the same way abortion does. We don't consider masturbation or the use of hand sanitizer to be acts of genocide, even if they result in the death of millions of living organisms.

We could grant a fetus such rights, and indeed some states have tried and others have succeeded. But they are entirely unable to express their will, and so someone else would have to act on their behalf. The logical choice would be, of course, the mother; thus making the granting of rights to a fetus almost entirely redundant for anything except trying to legally deny women bodily autonomy.

And if we're being honest here, that's the end goal of all such 'fetus rights' legislation; to control a woman's body with the rule of law.

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02-04-2016, 03:52 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(01-04-2016 04:26 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Now in Texas you can't even do that. If that fetus dies after 20 weeks it is illegal to abort it for any reason. Women in Texas have faced the situation where they know the fetus is dead and are still forced to carry it for months.

That is revolting.

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02-04-2016, 03:58 AM (This post was last modified: 02-04-2016 05:26 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(02-04-2016 03:52 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 04:26 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Now in Texas you can't even do that. If that fetus dies after 20 weeks it is illegal to abort it for any reason. Women in Texas have faced the situation where they know the fetus is dead and are still forced to carry it for months.

That is revolting.

I have two simple rules to live by. Never experiment on a species capable of calculus, and don't visit areas where the road signs are riddled with bullet holes.

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They've kept me safe, and as of yet, out of Texas.

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02-04-2016, 06:03 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(02-04-2016 01:54 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 05:21 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  Fetuses don't have rights. People have rights.


People have the rights we agree they have. Rights aren't universal or inherent (sorry founding fathers, but you where wrong on this one), they are granted; and we can grant those rights to other things, even if we don't apply them consistently. Your pets have a greater 'right to life' and legal protections than chickens on a farm. The ethical quandaries of eating scrambled eggs isn't burning up our justice system in the same way abortion does. We don't consider masturbation or the use of hand sanitizer to be acts of genocide, even if they result in the death of millions of living organisms.

We could grant a fetus such rights, and indeed some states have tried and others have succeeded. But they are entirely unable to express their will, and so someone else would have to act on their behalf. The logical choice would be, of course, the mother; thus making the granting of rights to a fetus almost entirely redundant for anything except trying to legally deny women bodily autonomy.

And if we're being honest here, that's the end goal of all such 'fetus rights' legislation; to control a woman's body with the rule of law.

Do you think that women should be allowed to terminate a viable pregnancy that poses no abnormal risks to mother and child, in the 3rd trimester?

If someone doesn't support late term abortions, then perhaps we could make the same argument about them wanting to control women's bodily autonomy?

The point I'm trying to make is that it all comes down to personal preference. You mention that a fetus is unable to express it's will. That's true, but the exact same thing can be said of a newborn infant, yet if a mother kills her newborn, we send her to prison, so whether or not something can express it's will seems irrelevant, unless you think women who kill newborns should receive no punishment....

What I'm getting at is that I don't think pro-lifers are interested in controlling women's bodily autonomy, I think they just draw the line in a different location than you, when it comes to willingness to kill a fetus.
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02-04-2016, 07:44 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(01-04-2016 05:21 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 03:45 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Heatheness, in your opinion what rights should a fetus have at 5 months? 7? 9? 1 Hour before exiting the vaginal canal? 1 Hour after?

Fetuses don't have rights. People have rights.

Well, definitionally , the unborn child is only only a fetus until about 11 weeks into the pregnancy (or 9 weeks after fertilization). I presume you would still like would-be mothers to have the legal right to have abortions later than three months into pregnancy, though your dodging half-answer doesn't imply that. Please correct me if I am wrong. If I am correct, when does an unborn child/infant become a person?

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02-04-2016, 09:26 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(02-04-2016 06:03 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(02-04-2016 01:54 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  People have the rights we agree they have. Rights aren't universal or inherent (sorry founding fathers, but you where wrong on this one), they are granted; and we can grant those rights to other things, even if we don't apply them consistently. Your pets have a greater 'right to life' and legal protections than chickens on a farm. The ethical quandaries of eating scrambled eggs isn't burning up our justice system in the same way abortion does. We don't consider masturbation or the use of hand sanitizer to be acts of genocide, even if they result in the death of millions of living organisms.

We could grant a fetus such rights, and indeed some states have tried and others have succeeded. But they are entirely unable to express their will, and so someone else would have to act on their behalf. The logical choice would be, of course, the mother; thus making the granting of rights to a fetus almost entirely redundant for anything except trying to legally deny women bodily autonomy.

And if we're being honest here, that's the end goal of all such 'fetus rights' legislation; to control a woman's body with the rule of law.

Do you think that women should be allowed to terminate a viable pregnancy that poses no abnormal risks to mother and child, in the 3rd trimester?

If someone doesn't support late term abortions, then perhaps we could make the same argument about them wanting to control women's bodily autonomy?

The point I'm trying to make is that it all comes down to personal preference. You mention that a fetus is unable to express it's will. That's true, but the exact same thing can be said of a newborn infant, yet if a mother kills her newborn, we send her to prison, so whether or not something can express it's will seems irrelevant, unless you think women who kill newborns should receive no punishment....

What I'm getting at is that I don't think pro-lifers are interested in controlling women's bodily autonomy, I think they just draw the line in a different location than you, when it comes to willingness to kill a fetus.

you think infants are unable to express their will?

I guess that's more personal preference or consideration and understanding of the terms.

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02-04-2016, 09:55 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(02-04-2016 07:44 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 05:21 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  Fetuses don't have rights. People have rights.

Well, definitionally , the unborn child is only only a fetus until about 11 weeks into the pregnancy (or 9 weeks after fertilization). I presume you would still like would-be mothers to have the legal right to have abortions later than three months into pregnancy, though your dodging half-answer doesn't imply that. Please correct me if I am wrong. If I am correct, when does an unborn child/infant become a person?

Fetus

fetus
[fe´tus] (L.)
the developing young in the uterus, specifically the unborn offspring in the postembryonic period, which in humans is from the third month after fertilization until birth.
See also embryo.

The stages of growth of the fetus are fairly well defined. At the end of the first month it has grown beyond microscopic size. After 2 months it is a little over 2.5 cm long, its face is formed, and its limbs are partly formed. By the end of the third month it is 8 cm long and weighs about 30 g; its limbs, fingers, toes, and ears are fully formed, and its sex can be distinguished.

After 4 months the fetus is about 20 cm long and weighs over 200 g. The mother can feel its movements, and usually the health care provider can hear its heartbeat. The eyebrows and eyelashes are formed, and the skin is pink and covered with fine hair called lanugo. By the fifth month the fetus's body is covered with a cheeselike substance (vernix caseosa), which serves to protect it in its watery environment. By the end of the fifth month it is 30 cm long, weighs 450 g, and has hair on its head. At the end of the sixth month it is 35 cm long and weighs 900 g, and its skin is very wrinkled.

After 7 months the fetus is 40 cm long and weighs over 1.3 kg, with more fat under its skin. In the male, the testes have descended into the scrotum. By the end of the eighth month it is 45 cm long, may weigh 2.3 kg, and has a good chance of survival if it is born at that time. At the end of 9 months, the average length of a fetus is 50 cm and the average weight is 3.2 kg. adj., adj fe´tal.

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fetus

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02-04-2016, 10:21 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
@Dark Light

In my opinion, a fetus has no rights. It only gain righs when they become independant living being (AKA after they are born). Then again, infants, children and teenagers don't have the same rights, priviledge and responsabilities than adults or compared to each other. A baby has practicly no rights beside having a citizenship, living, having people to care of him (they don't even need to be good or even apt at their job). It make sense since they don't really have the capacity to exercise the rights, priviledge and responsability of an adult.

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02-04-2016, 07:50 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(02-04-2016 10:21 AM)epronovost Wrote:  @Dark Light

In my opinion, a fetus has no rights. It only gain righs when they become independant living being (AKA after they are born). Then again, infants, children and teenagers don't have the same rights, priviledge and responsabilities than adults or compared to each other. A baby has practicly no rights beside having a citizenship, living, having people to care of him (they don't even need to be good or even apt at their job). It make sense since they don't really have the capacity to exercise the rights, priviledge and responsability of an adult.

1.) Spell check is your friend.
2.) Using your definition humans can't really be independent until their teens, so should mothers and/or fathers be able to kill unwanted children prior to them being capable of surviving independently?
3.) Since they don't have citizenship until after birth you would reckon that at least mothers should be allowed to kill unborn children even in the delivery room if they got cold feet. Practically it would be more safe for the mother, and more humane for the child if she gave birth and then had a doctor lop it's head off. Why not cut her open, take the child, sew up mommy and then kill the baby? The baby hasn't developed any any meaningful or measurable way for the 30 minutes or so that this would take.

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02-04-2016, 08:16 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
Quote:The neural regions and pathways that are responsible for pain experience remain under debate but it is generally accepted that pain from physical trauma requires an intact pathway from the periphery, through the spinal cord, into the thalamus and on to regions of the cerebral cortex including the primary sensory cortex (S1), the insular cortex and the anterior cingulated cortex.3,4 Fetal pain is not possible before these necessary neural pathways and structures (figure 1) have developed. -pg. 3

The report specifically identified the anterior cingulate as the area of the cerebral cortex responsible for pain processing. The anterior cingulate is part of the cerebral cortex, which begins to develop in the fetus at week 26.

Personally, I feel empathy for life that can feel pain. Our best guess puts this at week 26.

However, I also feel that even after that time, saving the life of the mother always takes precedence over the life of the baby. Unless mom decides she'd rather die and leave an orphaned baby behind.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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