Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
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02-04-2016, 08:24 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(02-04-2016 08:16 PM)Dom Wrote:  Personally, I feel empathy for life that can feel pain. Our best guess puts this at week 26.
If one takes the Pain argument. Then one has to ask, "which is more painful, being born or being aborted?"

IF being born is more painful, then ought we to make it illegal for babies to be born?

Of course this is absurd, but in my opinion the pain argument is absurd.
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02-04-2016, 08:30 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(02-04-2016 08:24 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(02-04-2016 08:16 PM)Dom Wrote:  Personally, I feel empathy for life that can feel pain. Our best guess puts this at week 26.
If one takes the Pain argument. Then one has to ask, "which is more painful, being born or being aborted?"

IF being born is more painful, then ought we to make it illegal for babies to be born?

Of course this is absurd, but in my opinion the pain argument is absurd.

I can't really argue with that. But that would be the point where I would start feeling that the fetus deserves protection.

Most certainly there is no reason at all to grant such protection when the fetus is a mass of tissue incapable of even feeling pain.

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02-04-2016, 08:42 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(02-04-2016 08:24 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(02-04-2016 08:16 PM)Dom Wrote:  Personally, I feel empathy for life that can feel pain. Our best guess puts this at week 26.
If one takes the Pain argument. Then one has to ask, "which is more painful, being born or being aborted?"

IF being born is more painful, then ought we to make it illegal for babies to be born?

Of course this is absurd, but in my opinion the pain argument is absurd.

I don't think it's absurd at all. C-Sections are very easy on babies if that route is taken - though that should obviously be done on a case by case basis at the mothers discretion. In my wife's case she had to/will have to have c-sections due to a low pelvic bone. Even for vaginal births, we don't know which is more painful, but it could very well could be more painful (for fetuses who have functional nervous systems with pain receptors) to have to be destroyed via medical abortion vice going through the child birth experience. I'm not saying this should be the only consideration, but it's worth consideration.

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02-04-2016, 09:30 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(02-04-2016 07:50 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(02-04-2016 10:21 AM)epronovost Wrote:  @Dark Light

In my opinion, a fetus has no rights. It only gain righs when they become independant living being (AKA after they are born). Then again, infants, children and teenagers don't have the same rights, priviledge and responsabilities than adults or compared to each other. A baby has practicly no rights beside having a citizenship, living, having people to care of him (they don't even need to be good or even apt at their job). It make sense since they don't really have the capacity to exercise the rights, priviledge and responsability of an adult.

1.) Spell check is your friend.
2.) Using your definition humans can't really be independent until their teens, so should mothers and/or fathers be able to kill unwanted children prior to them being capable of surviving independently?
3.) Since they don't have citizenship until after birth you would reckon that at least mothers should be allowed to kill unborn children even in the delivery room if they got cold feet. Practically it would be more safe for the mother, and more humane for the child if she gave birth and then had a doctor lop it's head off. Why not cut her open, take the child, sew up mommy and then kill the baby? The baby hasn't developed any any meaningful or measurable way for the 30 minutes or so that this would take.

1) Reading comprehension is your friend. You will notice that the very first right an infant is granted is the right to live. I mentioned it, alongside a few other rights, in the third sentence of my reply and you seem to have overlooked it for some reason. Because of it, killing him/her after birth would constitute murder. Should a parent not want a child after its birth, it can be given in adoption or even abandoned legally as long as the child is abandoned in safe place and is less than 10 years old. Fortunately, those events are rather rare relatively speaking. Adults have those things called responsibilities that infants don't have and have.

2) You would recon that should a fetus be granted right to live, should a miscarriage occurs during third semester, the baby was to be a stillborn or would die during labor we would have to charge the mother and/or the medical personnel for 2nd degree murder. There is no such thing as killing «unwillingly» a human being without consequences. Considering the trauma of natural birth, should it be considered a criminal assault on the person of the child? Light injuries are rather frequent in newborn babies.

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02-04-2016, 09:39 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(02-04-2016 06:03 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Do you think that women should be allowed to terminate a viable pregnancy that poses no abnormal risks to mother and child, in the 3rd trimester?

I don't know. But that's not a decision I have to live with.


(02-04-2016 06:03 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  If someone doesn't support late term abortions, then perhaps we could make the same argument about them wanting to control women's bodily autonomy?

Context and circumstance means everything in these situations, and ultimately, it isn't my decision to make.


(02-04-2016 06:03 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  The point I'm trying to make is that it all comes down to personal preference. You mention that a fetus is unable to express it's will. That's true, but the exact same thing can be said of a newborn infant, yet if a mother kills her newborn, we send her to prison, so whether or not something can express it's will seems irrelevant, unless you think women who kill newborns should receive no punishment....

A newborn isn't a part of the mother, and thus it's existence is separate of woman's bodily autonomy. The will of the mother is primary and takes precedent. A pregnant woman could commit suicide, should anti-abortion laws prevent her from doing so? Should we convict and imprison such a woman, and force her to conceive against her will?

Are you trying to create a strawman here? When did you stop beating your wife?


(02-04-2016 06:03 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  What I'm getting at is that I don't think pro-lifers are interested in controlling women's bodily autonomy, I think they just draw the line in a different location than you, when it comes to willingness to kill a fetus.

Sure, some of them do exist. But are they the ones pushing for restrictive legislation to eliminate a woman's access to abortion? Sidestepping the Supreme Court by putting meaningless restrictions into law to shut down clinics or make them neigh inaccessible? The ones protesting on city street corners with pictures of bloody corpses and quoting Bible verses? The ones targeting and slut shaming those in the parking lots of clinics? All under the guise of 'women's health'?

No. Those assholes aren't worried about woman's health, they want women to know their 'place'. Subservience. Whether to men, the Bible, or whatever they imagine their particular interpretation of god wants. They want them punished for having sex before marriage, and having the audacity to enjoy it; for being their own sexual beings. These are the same asshole that are fighting access to contraception.

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02-04-2016, 09:50 PM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(02-04-2016 09:30 PM)epronovost Wrote:  1) Reading comprehension is your friend. ......

Consider

Quote:2) You would recon that should a fetus be granted right to live, should a miscarriage occurs during third semester

I would propose the teacher/professor be charged if the fetus dies in the third *semester*.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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03-04-2016, 12:04 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(02-04-2016 08:30 PM)Dom Wrote:  I can't really argue with that. But that would be the point where I would start feeling that the fetus deserves protection.

Most certainly there is no reason at all to grant such protection when the fetus is a mass of tissue incapable of even feeling pain.
From my perspective, it's more about when you deem another woman's pregnancy to be your own business.
And how much that means to you.

I think it is easy to forget that the police are a forcible unit. It is a violent approach to have the police interject into the affairs of ordinary people.

If you think that the police are acting on your behalf, then you could consider at what point would you personally use force on another person to stop them doing something.

For example, if someone was raping a poor girl. You may feel compelled to risk harm to yourself in order to forcibly interject and stop the attacker doing this act. In this circumstance you may feel justified in sending properly trained and suited police to do this violent act on your behalf.

But in terms of a woman having an abortion, at what point would you personally interject, risking harm on yourself to save the unborn child? If you wouldn't do this yourself, perhaps it's not as important to you as you may think. And perhaps you are only considering a law because you don't perceive the police as performing this violent act on your behalf.

I think when we have specialised in our roles in society, we "forget" that laws mean sanctioning of physical violence against others. It become then, easy to say, I don't like such and such so I think it should be outlawed.
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03-04-2016, 12:12 AM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2016 12:19 AM by Stevil.)
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(02-04-2016 08:42 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  I don't think it's absurd at all. C-Sections are very easy on babies if that route is taken - though that should obviously be done on a case by case basis at the mothers discretion.
But, hang on, why is it obvious to be at the mother's discretion?
You are saying it is her choice regardless of what pain the unborn experiences.

So then the pain argument is irrelevant. It is ultimately the mother's discretion because it is her business and not yours, not the government's or the police's.

It is not the government's place to tell a woman that she is to have a c-section rather than a natural birth.
AND
It is not the government's place to tell a woman that she must have a baby if she gets pregnant.

(02-04-2016 08:42 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  ...but it could very well could be more painful (for fetuses who have functional nervous systems with pain receptors) to have to be destroyed via medical abortion vice going through the child birth experience. I'm not saying this should be the only consideration, but it's worth consideration.
The consideration is the mother's to be had, not yours or mine and not the governments.
If you want to educate the mother to the pain involved in the options, then create some pamphlets and hand them out. But you don't need to force her down a path of your choosing.
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03-04-2016, 01:29 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
I'd be fine with Congress passing laws on abortion if the male members (who comprise 80% of the body) would be required to abstain from voting. If you're going to regulate such an intensely personal decision, you should be liable to making that decision yourself.

Anything else smacks of paternalistic hubris.
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03-04-2016, 06:00 AM
RE: Women Who Have Abortions Should Be Punished
(02-04-2016 08:42 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(02-04-2016 08:24 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If one takes the Pain argument. Then one has to ask, "which is more painful, being born or being aborted?"

IF being born is more painful, then ought we to make it illegal for babies to be born?

Of course this is absurd, but in my opinion the pain argument is absurd.

I don't think it's absurd at all. C-Sections are very easy on babies if that route is taken - though that should obviously be done on a case by case basis at the mothers discretion. In my wife's case she had to/will have to have c-sections due to a low pelvic bone. Even for vaginal births, we don't know which is more painful, but it could very well could be more painful (for fetuses who have functional nervous systems with pain receptors) to have to be destroyed via medical abortion vice going through the child birth experience. I'm not saying this should be the only consideration, but it's worth consideration.


Why do you think women cannot make this decision on their own?

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